The “Life as a Reader” blog has an interesting post I thought I would share. It is a testimony of a young man raised by gay parents. The testimony he shared is compelling and passionate from his point of view.
Personally, I can understand where both sides of the aisle are coming from. I wonder if there is a way to please both sides of the debate. For example, what if they defined gay unions as simply “unions” instead of “marriage”? That would allow the gay couples to have rights and also not redefine the definition of what marriage is.
What are your thoughts?
Grace for Grace 
29 comments
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February 3, 2011 at 4:07 am
Carla
Thanks for the shout-out!
Similar to what I said on my own post, I don’t like the idea of any group getting the right to define a word, or to define or label another person’s relationship.
I don’t mean to bring up a hot-button issue (this is honestly what comes to mind when you put it that way), but how do you feel about the fact that billions of other people think they have a right to define what a Christian is, and that your faith is excluded by many of them? As a cradle Catholic, being told I’m not a Christian always upset me – what gives anybody else the right to define what a Christian is, let alone tell me I’m not one because we disagree about how to express our faith in Jesus?
I believe whole-heartedly in the right of individuals to define their beliefs and their relationships for themselves, and to be free from others’ attempts to define (label, stereotype) them.
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February 3, 2011 at 4:26 am
ama49
Hi Carla,
I can understand where you’re coming from, but there has to be a standard that stems from somewhere. I think most Christians use the Bible as that standard where Adam and Eve were married by God. People didn’t define marriage…God did, at least according to the Bible.
That being said, the point you bring up about Christians and the Bible falls right in line with what I’m describing. The Bible defines Christians in Acts 11:26 as those people who were disciples, or followers, of Jesus. If other people from other denomonations want to think I’m not a Christian, I could care less because I know what the definition of a Christian is according to what the prophets have said.
However, if we are not using the Bible as the standard, the point you bring up is definitely a valid one. I agree with you that a group of people doesn’t have the right to define things for other people in the way that you described it.
My personal feeling is that we shouldn’t define things for oursleves, rather, we should define things the way God defines it and line ourselves up with that.
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February 3, 2011 at 4:33 am
Carla
That makes sense too, and within the context of your faith, you can define marriage according to how you believe God defines marriage. But (I think you were getting at this same point) in the context of the law in the United States, we don’t get to favor one religion over another. There are many religions that do define marriage in a way the includes LGBT people, and for them their beliefs are just as real and true as yours are to you.
And the fact is, all religious organizations will still have the right to deny marriage to anybody they want. A Catholic priest would not marry a couple of Lutherans, and that’s been true for centuries, but he’d never be charged or sued for religious discrimination. To be honest, the Catholic church doesn’t consider any marriage a “real” marriage unless it’s done in a Catholic Church (you could argue semantically that they distinguish between “marriage” and “sacramental marriage,” but for what it means to believers, the only “real” marriage is a sacramental marriage). You personally, and all believers, would have a right to maintain their beliefs and personal definition of marriage.
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February 4, 2011 at 4:01 am
Proud Daughter of Eve
I fail to see the point of allowing same-sex unions to have all the rights of marriage but just calling it something else. “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” Deny it or accept it as you want but this trying to tip-toe around it doesn’t solve anything.
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February 8, 2011 at 8:11 pm
ama49
Proud Daughter of Eve,
I disagree with you on this one. I believe people should have rights regardless of sexual orientation and I do not think calling it a union or something else is “tip-toeing” around the issue. As you can see from other people who are pro-gay marriage they do not believe this is enough. We need to find a way to find common ground from your stance and also from their stance and it appears both sides (at least from the comments on this post) are not willing to budge.
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February 4, 2011 at 3:40 pm
Latter-day Guy
From Mere Christianity (C.S. Lewis):
It’s a bit sad that Americans seem unable to make this distinction between legal marriage and sacramental marriage, simply because they use the same word. Given that, maybe the best solution would be for government to get out of the marriage business altogether. Offer civil unions, and let each faith decide who and how they will marry.
Incidentally, an appeal to a biblical standard is an argument rife with trouble and pitfalls you probably don’t want to bother with. Simply put, it’s really, really problematic.
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February 8, 2011 at 8:14 pm
ama49
Latter-day Guy,
Very insightful post by Lewis and your comments as well. Do you think there would be any reprecussions of allowing unions to everyone and then church weddings in addition to that? Do you think that would be confusing or not?
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February 9, 2011 at 2:48 am
Cal
Latter-day Guy, thanks for your quote of C. S. Lewis. It’s interesting & profound. It makes me think of Mark 10:2-5:
“Some Pharisees came and tested [Jesus] by asking, ‘Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?’
‘What did Moses command you?’ he replied.
They said, ‘Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.’
‘It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,’ Jesus replied.
I’m not sure exactly how that lends to the discussion, but I think it shows, as my NIV Study Bible indicates, that those to whom much has been entrusted by God are more responsible and therefore more severely punished when they mess up, and those to whom God has entrusted little are disciplined less severely.
I think Christians, including me, who are involved in politics—and we should be—have to examine closely how we do it and why we do it.
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February 5, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Cal
I like what ama and Daughter of Eve said.
Carla, how does the Catholic church view gay marriage? (By the way, I’ll never say you aren’t a Christian because you are Catholic—if you have not made Jesus your personal Lord, that’s different. I hope you have—you’ll never regret it.)
Carla, is it alright if I ask, “Are you gay?”
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February 6, 2011 at 2:26 am
Carla
The Catholic Church basically says they’ll accept some people are born gay but they expect you not to “act” gay or to “identify” as gay – they expect you to relate to your sexuality the same way you would a cancer, that it doesn’t define you and that it’s bad. Needless to say, I disagree. 😀 My belief is that a gay person’s sexuality is as much a (positive) part of their identity as mine is to my identity.
I consider myself a 1 on the Kinsey scale. I’ve been married to the love of my life for 7 months today (woohoo!). I don’t mind that you ask but I’m curious why you asked.
As for Christianity, I tried for 22 years to be a Christian first in every way. All it did was ruin my relationships with other people, especially my relationship with my (now) husband. Once I gave up religion, my life, and my relationship with my husband and all the people I really wanted to have a relationship with, improved drastically.
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February 6, 2011 at 9:38 pm
ama
Hi Carla,
You’ve left some very interesting comments. When you say you left religion, what do you mean exactly by that and also why do you think it has helped you?
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February 7, 2011 at 5:24 am
Carla
Well it’s difficult to give a good idea of it in a short post, but there are a few posts about it on my blog if you want the whole story. Essentially, bit by bit, the claims of the Catholic Church just meant less and less to me. When the things I saw in my life (whether personal experiences or scientific evidence) blatantly contradicted the things the Church wanted me to believe about, for instance sexuality (not necessarily sexual orientation), and when I compare this to the fact that they’ve basically been making huge mistake after huge mistake through history, I can’t help but think, “these people have no more authority or ability to speak for God than I do.” Deeper study of the history of the Bible, and especially exploring the claims and beliefs of other religions (Evangelical Christianity, mainstream Protestantism, Mormonism), comparing them all, I sort of saw them all equally. And I couldn’t believe any of them.
So anyway, when I say that leaving religion behind helped me, I mean that for the first 3 years of my relationship I really believed that my (then) fiance should and would eventually convert to Catholicism. I pushed and pushed, and it put a lot of strain on our relationship. I didn’t think he wasn’t “saved” or anything, but I had been raised with the mindset that anybody who wasn’t Catholic was just missing out on the best thing that could happen to them. And that’s how I viewed my friends who were non-Catholics or lapsed Catholics – I thought they were missing out, I pitied them. It got in the way of actually valuing them as a person. Once I stopped seeing Catholicism, and Christianity in general, as this great awesome thing that was the cure to anything bad, I realized just how much I’d been judging and alienating people.
For me personally, there’s no way to really believe in my faith (to see Catholicism or anything else as the One True Faith) and not want to make everybody else see what I see. It’s the nature of my personality. For me, religion is bad, just as it is for my husband.
If you want to know more about my story, you could read these posts:
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2010/09/jesus-interrupted-book-review.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2011/01/trampling-catholicism.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2011/01/epiphany-of-santa-claus-impossibility.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2010/10/female-altar-servers-lay-ministers-in.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-am-cafeteria-catholic.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2011/01/stages-of-grief-in-leaving-religion.html
http://lifeofcarla.blogspot.com/2010/12/god-and-human-brain.html
This isn’t to say I reject all participation in my childhood faith. I personally love the Mass, I love the Sacraments, I love the hymns and the rituals and the community and I agree with a good portion of the social teachings of the Catholic Church. I would go to Mass every week if we didn’t have such an a-hole of a priest in town here. But to be “devoted” doesn’t help me. Regular prayer, reading the Bible as anything other than a good story, subscribing to moral and theological doctrines simple because the hierarchy says so, that doesn’t help me at all. So I left it behind me, I no longer hang on to things that just make me and the people I love miserable.
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February 8, 2011 at 8:20 pm
ama49
Hi Carla,
Thanks for sharing your personal story with us here. I know it is personal and you definitely have feelings attached to that situation.
One of the first posts I wrote on this blog a few years ago was entitled “Why do People Leave the LDS Church?”
As you can see from my post and others that commented, this concept isn’t foreign to the LDS culture either. What has helped me is by seeing the good in the religion I choose to follow realizing that it is run by humans who are not flawless. I take what I can from the religion realizing the most important thing is my personal relationship with God.
Do you still have a relationship with God?
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February 8, 2011 at 8:33 pm
Carla
ama49,
Not really. I have more of a relationship with the ritual and the symbolism – the way I feel certain great works of literature resonate with me on a deeply personal level (books by Louise Erdrich, Amy Tan, Irish myth and modern Irish literature). These things mean a great deal to me, and I don’t mean to belittle religion by comparing it to fiction (i.e. I’m not trying to call religion fictional). As a literature scholar, fiction is what touches me and moves me the most, to be quite honest.
I don’t feel I have a relationship with a person when I think about God. It’s an intellectual concept to me. The Blessed Virgin is another story. I truly feel that she is my spiritual mother and that she loves me (and I do mean feel, not believe). This is one reason Catholicism is still important to me, even if I don’t believe in the god of the Bible.
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February 13, 2011 at 6:06 am
ama49
Hi Carla,
Thanks for sharing your feelings here. I think it is important what you stated about having a relationship with ritual and symbolism…I think we deal with that a lot in the LDS church and people have a hard time separating that from a true relationship with God. The bottom line with everything is faith is hard to measure and I think it is good you are being true to yourself and not doing things that you feel forced.
Personally, I believe that good feelings you receive all stem from a Creator so you probably have a relationship with God and may not even know it.
Thanks for sharing openly on this blog. You’re welcome to visit anytime.
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February 8, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Cal
Carla, we’d like to know more details, but based on what you’ve said so far, you sound like the man of Matthew 13:5-6, 20-22, who received the good news of salvation but his faith didn’t last. When trouble or persecution came because of the gospel, he fell away.
I can sympathize with your situation, but if you only knew how much God loves you and how many blessings he has waiting for you, you would be willing to give up even your husband, if that were necessary, to be with him.
Luke 18:29-30: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.”
The Lord loves you with an undying love, and he is passionately pursuing your heart.
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February 8, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Carla
I hope you realize how demeaning and hurtful it is when you invalidate someone’s life experiences like that, and label them with stereotyped caricatures, so that you can dismiss them as selfish or lacking in faith. I assure you, I went through plenty of “trouble and persecution” in my 22 years as a faithful practicing Catholic.
You really didn’t get what I was saying. I did not leave my religion because things got tough and I chose the easy path, as you are implying. I gave it up because it made me a bad person. It made me treat people like crap, and it left me alone with nothing but my self-righteousness to comfort me. It made me do things like what you just did to me, demeaning others’ experiences, feelings, and beliefs by making stereotypical assumptions about them instead of acknowledging reality: some people just don’t benefit from Christianity.
I find it offensive in the extreme that anyone would suggest to me that I leave my husband, or reject any other person I love, because they don’t share my faith. If there is a God and he loves us and wants the best for us, I can’t imagine he would demand that we rip our families apart for his sake. That is why the god of the Bible is not my god.
So if you want to ask questions and talk about religion, that’s fine. But stop evangelizing, and stop telling me what *really* happened that made me leave religion. You weren’t there. You don’t know me. You aren’t inside my head. I don’t appreciate being judged and insulted.
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February 9, 2011 at 12:06 am
Cal
Carla said, “You really didn’t get what I was saying.”
Sorry.
You misunderstood some things I said as well.
I guess we need to start over. I won’t talk about you. I’ll just talk about me. Is it okay if I say that Jesus has made me happier?
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February 9, 2011 at 2:11 am
Cal
Better yet, let’s talk about something we agree on.
Do you like any of the following? Traveling. Apple pies. People. Blogging. Christmas. Watching sports.
On the other hand, ama may want us to stay close to the topic he started. Maybe we should wait for the next topic!
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February 9, 2011 at 3:52 am
Carla
I love that Christianity makes some people very happy and satisfied with their lives. I certainly don’t deny that for many Christianity is what pulls them out of the depths of despair and into a better life full of joy and love. That’s awesome. It’s just not me.
I’m cool with letting this discussion drop; we’ve all said what we intended to say I think.
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February 9, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Cal
Thanks. Have a good day, Carla!
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February 11, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Cal
I don’t know if Carla is still around but I think I’ll feel better if I get some stuff off my chest.
I asked my wife about the above conversation. She confirmed that I did judge Carla, etc.
I feel bad about it. I was not led by the Spirit but got into that spirit of religion that you hate. I did exactly what I’m always thinking others shouldn’t do.
I messed up.
Now I need to forgive myself as quickly as God forgives me.
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February 13, 2011 at 6:01 am
ama49
Good man, Cal!
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February 11, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Carla
I have no beef with you Cal, I hope you don’t dwell on it. 😀 It was obvious that you meant no offense, which is the only reason I responded – I thought a person of your compassion would like to know that my feelings were hurt, so as to avoid doing the same in the future.
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February 12, 2011 at 2:45 am
Cal
You are exactly right! 🙂 I WAS thinking that.
Most people just disappear.
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February 12, 2011 at 6:56 pm
Cal
Have any of you ever read the Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt? I’m reading it now and it’s the most interesting, intriguing, uplifting Mormon book I’ve ever read with the only possible exception of the Book of Mormon!
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February 13, 2011 at 6:07 am
ama49
You sound like a Mormon, Cal!
No, I haven’t read it. I should though.
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February 14, 2011 at 2:51 am
Cal
Yes, ama, you should read it! A book report on it would make a great post.
I’ve told Mormon missionaries that I’m sort of semi-Mormon. They look at me blankly. I don’t think they think there is any such thing!
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February 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm
Resources for Mark 10:2 - 5
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