On one of my most recent posts, some LDS and non-LDS christians were having a great discussion about what the definition of scripture is for each of us. I do not claim to be the expert on this topic for either LDS or non-LDS, but I can definitely share my personal thoughts and also point to what others have said that I agree with on this topic.
My first thought when researching this is to turn directly to the LDS Bible Dictionary. The definition is:
The word scripture means a writing, and is used to denote a writing recognized by the Church as sacred and inspired. It is so applied to the books of the O.T. by the writers of the N.T. (Matt. 22: 29; John 5: 39; 2 Tim. 3: 15). For an account of the process by which the books of the O.T. and N.T. came to be recognized as scripture, see Canon. Latter-day revelation identifies scripture as that which is spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost (D&C 68: 1-4).
This definition gives us a good start, but it can lead to various interpretations. According to this, it states that scripture is writing that is recognized by the Church, but also scripture are words spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost. Therefore, one could interpret scripture to mean that it is anything shared by inspired men or women prophesying. This can be confusing for people. Especially if what one is speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost may not reflect one’s personal convictions. Or worse yet, may not be validated with other scriptures.
I believe that according to this definition, scripture has two parts, or definitions to it. The first part is scripture for the Church. The second is prophecy or divine revelation for individuals.
Scripture for the Church as a Whole (Canon)
Once again, a great first step is to research the Bible Dictionary under “Canon”. According to the Bible Dictionary, LDS believe Canon is “used to denote the authoritative collection of the sacred books used by the true believers in Christ”. The dictionary then goes on to attempt to describe how our current Bible became canon and the test of how to decide if writings should be considered scriptural or not. The test to see if something is scriptural includes these three questions:
Is it claimed that the document was written by a prophet or an apostle?Is the content of the writing consistent with known and accepted doctrines of the faith?Is the document already used and accepted in the Church?
Personally, I like the similar definition given by George Cobabe from FAIR. In his article on The White Horse Prophecy, he describes how the LDS church deems a writing to be considered scripture for the Church as a whole. First, it needs to be revealed through the prophet. Next, it needs to be accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Finally, it needs to be presented to the members of the Church and accepted. After all of these steps are met, then a writing is considered to be “scripture”.
This process shouldn’t be foreign to other non-LDS Christians. It is similar to the councils held thousands of years ago to determine what should be considered scripture. The second part of scripture should also be familiar with non-LDS christians.
Scripture as Personal Prophecy
The second definition of scripture for LDS according to the Bible Dictionary is “that which is spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost”, which in my mind is essentially prophecy. From my experience in the LDS church, one of the main ways one can recieve personal scripture is through a Patriarchal Blessing. In the LDS church, there are men who are set apart and called as “Patriarchs”. These men give inspired blessings and through the power of the Holy Ghost, prophecy personal revelation for individuals.
On rare and special occasions, I’ve also seen people prophecy directly to someone but usually I’ve seen things come to pass through giving blessings. In either case, by definition, this could be called “scripture” as it is given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Another way people in the LDS church receive “scripture” is through the prophet and apostles speaking. Typically what I’ve heard is when they speak in general conference and their talks are published you can consider that scripture. However, I’ve seen people quick to dismiss some things, especially things that were “prophecied” by former prophets such as Brigham Young or Joseph Smith that may have been published but didn’t go through the aforementioned process of canonization. Therefore, there is some gray area around what to consider as “scripture” or just “inspired”.
Conclusion
The two parts of defining scripture should be familiar to both LDS and non-LDS christians. I’m confident that both parties can agree on how the Church as a whole accepts scripture. The second part, which is less structured, may not be considered to be “scripture” per se for both parties. A safe way to measure if we can consider what someone prophesies to be deemed as “scripture” is if it lines up with what has been canonized.
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September 22, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Doug
That does help me to understand the difference and the similarities between evangelicals and LDS regarding the definition of scripture. I have received Words of Knowledge over the years from various church leaders-and many of them had a real sense of the Spirit in them-but I don’t consider them as Scripture. I don’t think of personal revelation as scripture-it sounds like the LDS people do-is that correct?
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September 23, 2010 at 12:18 am
ama49
Hi Doug,
I wouldn’t say that personal revelation is scripture. What I would say people consider as scripture is when a prophet speaks or if a patriarchal blessing is given. These are more official.
Where I may differ from other LDS people is that I feel that it needs to be supported by the Bible and Book of Mormon and line up with what Jesus Christ says is his gospel. This gospel is faith, repentance, baptism, the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Enduring faithfully until the end. If a prophet (which has happened in the past) “prophecies” something outside of this I question whether it is scriptural.
When you think about it, it’s very similar with how we received our Bible. Prophets and apostles wrote letters inspired by the Spirit and at the councils, church leaders put together the writings that most closely aligned with the gospel of Christ.
Does this make sense?
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September 23, 2010 at 1:44 am
Cal
Yes, it makes sense.
I don’t mean this disrespectfully toward LDS leaders, but once again, ama, it’s evident to me that you have more revelation on some things than your leaders do.
(Incidentally, do you consider yourself a “New Order Mormon”? I just recently learned that term. When I get time enough I’m going to check out newordermormon.org.)
I like that you differ from other Mormons in that you feel patriarchal blessings (personal prophecies) need to be supported by the Bible and Book of Mormon—and I would add, supported by our inner witness.
I feel that one weakness in the LDS is that they accept things Joseph Smith said just because he was a prophet even when what he said obviously disagrees with established Scripture.
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September 24, 2010 at 4:07 am
ama49
Cal,
Interesting insight on the LDS and Joseph Smith. I’ve wondered the same thing.
Joseph Smith himself had the same concern. There is a quote that he says something to the effect of him worrying the people follow him blindly. I’ll have to look it up.
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September 23, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Doug
I agree with ama and Cal. I believe we need a yard stick by which we “measure” teachings and prophecies-that was kind of where I was going with Ken but I went down a little bunny path! I believe in promptings of the Spirit and personal revelation from the Lord, however we must have something by which we can verify it as truly coming from the Holy Spirit. That’s the danger when we are fuzzy about what our standards are. I never heard of New Order Mormons, Cal-I’ll check it out.
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September 23, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Cal
Let me know what you think, Doug!
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September 23, 2010 at 6:50 pm
Ken
Cal said
“I don’t mean this disrespectfully toward LDS leaders, but once again, ama, it’s evident to me that you have more revelation on some things than your leaders do.”
I don’t think you could consider this “more” revelation when looking at patriarchal blessings. As each person including the Prophet will have his own patriarchal blessing . But rather “more specific” revelation to your personal needs as an individual person. How in tune to the spirit each person is will determine just how much revelation they will have access to and how true those promptings from the spirit are.
I do agree with ama49 when he said “I feel that it needs to be supported by the Bible and Book of Mormon and line up with what Jesus Christ says is his gospel.” However Abraham did recieve personal revelation to take the life of his son. Although he was in tune to the spirit enough to be told when he had gone far enough, at least according to the Jahwist text, how do we reconcil that with the gospel? I would really question anyone who claimed to have a similar personal revelation.
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September 23, 2010 at 9:03 pm
Doug
NOM-wow! They cover a wide spectrum of beliefs (and no beliefs) and opinions. Some seem okay where they are and others seem angry or searching. Is there anything equivalent to this among evangelicals? (Cal-maybe you know!) Evangelical cultures does not seem to create the uniformity that is implied by the NOM site regarding the LDS. I really enjoyed a link I found that took you to MrDiety.com and a funny clip on the trinity.
On a different note: Ken-your points are thought provoking-are you a leader in the church?
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September 23, 2010 at 9:43 pm
Ken
Nope,
In fact just recently getting back into church activity after some years of inactivity. Never lost my testimony, but did loose my strength to stay strong in the things I know to be true.
I did serve a 2 year mission some years ago. Went to Central England area. Loved it there. Loved the peole. Saw a few people learn the gospel message and join the church. Also grew to love a lot of peole that didn’t join the church but still loved the lord with all their hearts within the faiths they held.
Having been away from the church, and coming back into it, relearning some of the great principles, has caused me to charish them so much more than I ever did before. I have also found my desire to learn and grow by studying all I can to be very enriching. Although I would hesitate to say my time away from the church was a good thing, I can say, at least for me, it was fundimental in my path to learning and growing to a greater understanding of who my savior is and what he has done for me. At times when I think about it, it is so humbling. I will also say I did need to learn more just how much I depend on him, and how each day can bring more learning and understanding of just how wonderful this great plan of salvation really is.
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September 24, 2010 at 4:02 am
ama49
Hi Ken,
I’m glad you’re finding a relationship with the Lord again. I rebelled for a couple years back in the day and it’s much better being in the light of the Lord.
Check out this scripture I read this morning. I think it is applicable:
“Truly the light is sweet, and a pleasant thing it is for the eyes to behold the sun.” (Ecclesiastes 10:7)
As we develop a relationship with the Lord sweetness and light fills our lives in all areas. I’m glad you’re experiencing that again.
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September 23, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Doug
Glad your strength has returned. I understand what you mean about dependence upon the Lord. I often think about those who don’t have Christ-how do they cope with the challenges of life? If it wasn’t for Jesus Christ-there would be mornings I’d be tempted just to pull the sheets over my head and not get out of bed! With your love for learning-hopefully you will be given opportunities to teach.
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September 24, 2010 at 1:00 am
Ezra
Doug, you used the key word: MEASURE.
You wrote:
“I believe we need a yard stick by which we ‘measure’ teachings and prophecies…”
The word “canon” means exactly that: Measurement.
Interesting thing about the Old Testament canon–and the New. It was attested to as Scripture as it was circulated among the synagogues and later among the churches. The collection of Scripture was generally known by common usage among God’s people. That was a key measurement. Alongside that is the measurement of what is passed along from one generation to the next. By 350 BC the Scriptures had been verifiably defined and categorized as Law, Prophets, and Wisdom. It didn’t take an official council to declare Scripture. Common usage and acceptance defined it.
Jesus’ acceptance of this canon is seen when he tells of the “Rich Man and Poor Lazarus.” At the “punch-line” of his story, as the rich man pleads for Lazarus to go back and warn his brothers about this place of torment, Abraham responds, “No. They have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them. If they do not listen to them (the Scriptures), then they will not listen if someone were to come back from the dead.”
The measurement for the New Testament is Jesus himself. This is seen when Jesus speaks to the learned scribes and Pharisees. He says, “You diligently study the Scriptures, because you think that by them you possess eternal life; these are the Scriptures, which testify about me” (John 5:39). The yardstick of the Gospels and the epistles are based on how they correspond to Jesus as the Messiah. The Apostle Paul told the church at Ephesus that they were joined with the church of all time, which was “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.”
And, of course, this whole collection of Scripture is called the New Testament because it speaks of Jesus’ fulfillment of the Covenant (or Testament) given to Abraham. Jesus declared that Abraham “rejoiced to see my day–and he saw it and was glad” (John 8:56). The only usage of the term “New Testament” is the reference to the Passover Meal which became the meal we celebrate as the “Lord’s Supper.” For Jesus took the cup of wine, after supper, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them saying, “Take, and drink… this cup is the new covenant (testament) of my blood poured out for you, for the forgiveness of sins” (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25).
While we have many writings that inspire us, only the Holy Spirit can move us to believe and to say, “Jesus Christ is Lord” (2 Cor. 11:21); and any testimony to the contrary is not of God and not to be considered Scripture or even scriptural. As Paul warned, if any Gospel did not square with the message of Jesus it should be rejected (2 Corinthians 11:4).
Jesus gives us the “measurement” whereby we believe and have eternal life, by his name.
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September 24, 2010 at 3:58 am
ama49
Ezra,
Very excellent comment. Thank you for the contribution!
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September 24, 2010 at 1:38 am
Doug
Amen and amen, Ezra!
Indeed-the NT canon was embraced by the church as Scripture long before it was formally approved as such by church council. The concern that I have for both the LDS people and many in the evangelical church (of which I am part) is that inner prompting, testimony of the Spirit, gut feelings, burning in the bosom, chills and goose bumps are all wonderful-but one must have something by which to measure them to see if they are truly in response to something that is of God. That is where I have been going and you said it better than I.
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September 24, 2010 at 1:42 am
Cal
Ken, you threw me for a loop on the Abraham-almost-killing-his-son thing. I don’t have a ready answer. The only thing that comes to mind is that just when you’ve set a rule that you think God always has to follow, you find an exception to the rule. The longer I live as a Christian, the more exceptions I find to God’s rules!
“Love your neighbor”—no exception for that one though, is there?
Doug, I’ll have to check out NewOrderMormon.org to find out what wowed you so.
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September 24, 2010 at 3:57 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
I really don’t think I have more revelation than the leaders do. I just have my own beliefs.
I reviewed some of the New Order Mormon site and I’ll have to say I agree with a lot of what they have on there. I’m not as black and white as I once was in regards to how the LDS church works. However, I choose to stay because I know that the Book of Mormon is revealed from God. This is through a personal witness through the Holy Ghost. I’ve felt the same spirit reading the Bible as well.
This part of the New Order Mormon site really stuck out to me as well:
“as we develop close associations or real friendships with people who are not LDS members, we often come to see that some of them are just as charitable, just as spiritually attuned (if not more so) as anyone we have encountered among the Latter-day Saints. Then it seems absurd to suppose that such people lack something called “the gift of the Holy Ghost,” or would be unworthy to enter God’s temple. As we pull away from the milieu of dogmatic Mormonism, a lot of us find ourselves inclining toward universalism – toward a conviction that “all God’s chillun got wings,” and that you have to do a lot worse than choose the wrong religion to make God (or Goddess) disapprove of you.”
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September 24, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Doug
The WOW was shock at some of the things I was reading.
The two things that surprised me on this site was the “revelation” that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints either isn’t the only true church OR isn’t a church at all but a slick business-I wasn’t expecting either one of these concepts to be expressed! The other thought expressed on this site was the almost universal shock at realizing there were people outside the church who were filled with the Holy Spirit. I can understand that-as I have been surprised to discover that there are LDS people who are filled with the Holy Spirit! (It works both ways!) Thanks to you ama-I will never look at the Mormon people in quite the same way.
The universalism evident on the NOM web site is (I believe) in response to the teachings of hard core Mormonism-although Mormonism itself has a universalism quality-we all get saved (but some of us get exalted). I personally find it impossible to be a universalist because of the many exclusive claims found in Scripture made by Jesus Christ, Paul and others (I’m the way, the truth, the life-no other name under heaven by which man can be saved-ect).
Sorry if this seems like I’m rambeling! I vote we meet somewhere in the middle of the country for a weekend and really hash through some of this stuff! Wouldn’t that be fun! (Not sure my wife would agree!)
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September 24, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Cal
Ama, that’s an interesting quote. It goes to show that inter-faith (inter-denominational) contact and fellowship leads to more revelation, not to mention other benefits.
I don’t go along with the universalism however. Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matt. 7:13-14). (I do hasten to add that I am aware that LDS may define “life” a little differently in that context.)
I sort of hope you stay Mormon, ama, because you provide a keystone to connect the bridge to! 🙂
Ken, I came out of the loop. Were you implying when you mentioned Abraham almost killing his son that Joseph Smith did say or do things that were in stark contrast with the Bible or BOM?
If so, are you VERY confident that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to you that he was doing God’s will in those instances?
And can you point to good fruit in your life as a result of believing Joseph was in God’s will when he deviated from Scripture?
I hope I haven’t given you another sleepless night!
Take your time answering. I’m not going anywhere.
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September 24, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Cal
Doug, we “crossed in the mail.”
Yes, the shock is incredible, isn’t it? The barriers between LDS & non-LDS are SO thick.
You said, “I vote we meet somewhere in the middle of the country. . . . Wouldn’t that be fun!” Yeah!
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September 24, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Ken
Cal,
I did not say that Abraham or imply that Joseph Smith deviated from scripture. Eternal truth goes much deeper than what God reveals to his children and that we compile and call scripture. This was Abrahams journey to developing the faith that he needed to stay true to the work that the Lord had for him to do. And can we say with all certanty that Abraham either 1) Did not kill his son, or 2) that he was ever asked to kill his son.
But, As both ama and I have mentioned we have at times not stayed strong to the faith. This was not an option for Abraham once the Lord chose him to be father of this great nation called Isreal. He had to prove, not to the Lord, for he knows all things past present and future, but to himself that he had the strength to do all things what so ever the Lord should commmand him.
The Lord can and does do things that seem to us to be outside of the bounds that he has established for his children. The lord can do things that we cannot do. A good example is the fact that he can take a human life, but we are commanded not to, but there have been times when he has lifted that cammand to accomplish his greater purpose.
This is what makes it near to impossible for us to use our own human understanding to establish a yard stick or any other device of measurement to understand God his will and what he knows to be best for his children. He has a perspective that we will never have while here on earth.
But we can trust that for most of us, these unusual cercumstances will never happen. So the yard stick we use to measure can only be for us to measure ourselves and how we are in compliance with scripture.
But for us to say that we can use that same yard stick to measure others is a mistake on several levels, I will leave it to readers to understand what those levels are.
Many Prophets have been called and given tasks to perform that appear to outside of what we know and understand to be the limits that the Lord has set. If we try to use our yard stick to measure them we will be making a mistake. But then we are still left with the questions, Then how to we know a prophet to be a true prophet. There needs to be a way to measure or determine that truth.
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September 24, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Cal
Ken, so you don’t believe Joseph ever really deviated from the Bible or BOM—just that it may seem to us at times that he did?
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September 24, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Ken
But if Abraham could be asked to kill his son, and there is still a early tradition recorded in midrash which preserves the story in which Isaac was killed. Also if Moses could be directed to tell his people to go in and kill men women and children. If Nephi could be commanded to take and cut off the head of Laban, and these are recorded in the Bible and BOM. Then what do we use as a standard to say that another prophet has deviated from the standard set forth within these records? First we need to establish what that standard is before we can accuse any prophet of deviating from that stardard.
let me ask you a question. If a prophet told you to go and kill a town of people including all the men and women and the younger boys, but the girls, under a certain age you could keep them if you wanted them. What would you do? Also keep in mind that something similar to this happened to your own people not to many years before, back when the prophet that told you to do this was just a baby. All the boys under the age of two were killed and their mothers cried bitterly. Although you were most likely not alive when this happened, you would have heard the stories.
If we do not realize that this had to be a very very hard command for these people to follow, then we could only say that it was easy because there was not that level of humanity in them. I’m not prepared to go there. I have to believe that this was the hardest thing that any of God’s children have been asked to do by one of his chosen prophets. I for one am so greatful that I was not alive at that time and had to choose to follow such command.
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September 24, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Ken
I think one thing that we can establish from the Bible and BoM is that from time to time prophets will be asked by the Lord to do things that are outside the standards that are generally set, and that the prophets may also command the people to participate in these things, but only so far as the Lord allows. If we can agree on that, then I think the next set from there is to make a list of all the things that prophets in the Bible and BoM have done, which we would all agree fall outside of the general standards, and start there to try and establish a general guide as to what the Lord may allow in certain circumstances.
But we need to be careful in trying to set boundaries or limits for what is a “certain circumstance”, because then we are trying to use our limited human understanding to explain why God does what he does and just how far we thing he can go.
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September 25, 2010 at 1:35 am
Cal
Yeah, Ken, I agree that God does surprise us. If parents like surprising their children with little presents, how much more will the Father do it, who loves us far more than we love our children.
There is an unconventional church within an hour of where I live that has a guest speaker about every other Sunday. Most of these guests are prophetic—what I mean is that they are either prophets or have the gift of prophecy. Many of them are revivalists and/or have strong faith for miracles & so on.
I was visiting this place a few years ago when gold dust miraculously appeared! I had read earlier in a Christian magazine of this phenomenon taking place in other places —most often in places where the presence of God is very strong.
There is no example of this happening in the Bible, but aside from sin, God can do anything he wants to, can’t he?
Talk to you later, my brother.
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September 25, 2010 at 8:12 am
Ken
That sounds like a very interesting church. I would love to go some time. I go to different churches around here. I hope it is south of you as I am south of you and it would be within driving distance.
I have never heard of a miracle where gold dust appeared. Was there inough to gather it and cash it in?(with gold prices where they are it wouldn’t take much) If so I can’t help but think God is performing a miracle and a test all at the same time (God generally has a purpose for his miracles). perhaps it is to see if the people will use the gift to bless the lives of those in need so that he might pour out on them eternal blessings where niether moths nor rust can destroy it or thieves break in and still. What do you think?
As far as what God can or cannot do, it is clear from scripture that we have been commanded not to kill, but we also know from the scriptures that God has taken lives. So to answer the question, is it a sin to kill? it would appear that the answer is both yes and no, it all depends on the situation.
I think too often we try to use human logic to understand God and just how he works. Our analitical thinking likes to fit every problem into a box. It is kind of like trying to use the same rules we use for math to figure God out. With math all rules are fixed. If you break the rule you get the wrong answer. But with God it is more like using the rules of language. There are rules, and you do have to follow them to make sense, but there are often exceptions to the rules. And when they apply is up to God and he reveals it through the spirit. And we must be in tune to know and understand.
If it was as simple as using the same fixity to the rules of math we would have exact answers to all the things God does and why. But we don’t and it is not that simple.
I go back again to the Jewish leaders at the time of Christ. Without the spirit they had to use their own logic to come up with rules for everything they did. Rules for the sabbath is the best example. They had created so many rules, that they were convinced that Jesus, doing good for other people, was commiting a sin. They had rules for getting a donkey out of the mud, but no rules for how to help the blind or sick. They were so blinded by their rules that they justified killing the savior based on those rules.
These things have been debated for thousands of years and man still struggles to find the answers, and cannot agree. But I am greatful that we can talk and share and remain friends in Christ because even if hearts are not changed at least they have stayed true to the command to love thy neighbor.
Talk to you soon Brother.
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September 25, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Doug
Cal and Ken, we had a Russian lady going around to churches in Pennsylvania manifesting the gold dust phenomena. She also generated large amounts of what she called “healing oil” from her body. A young man in our church got really caught up in this and I went to one of her services to investigate it. I found the gold dust thing a bit strange and the oil kind of disgusting. I must confess that I find such “miracles” suspicious. I have no doubt that God can do anything-but some of these remind me of that old movie Elmer Gantry and smack of snake oil. We need to be very discerning about such things (Matt. 24:24)
Cal-what part of the country do you live in?-it sounds like you and Ken aren’t too far away.
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September 25, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Ken
I was mistaken about my location relative to Cal. It was ama49 that sent me a message about his location.
I have to say that I am with you Doug on this miracle thing. Not that I don’t believe that God can do some very amazing things, but from what I have seen, he always uses these miracles to bless the lives of his children, not just to pull off some kind of neet majic trick. So when I hear of something that is a miracle, my first thought is how is God using this to bless someones life. I guess someone could say that turning water into wine was a display of his power rather than blessing someones life, but at the same time, there was a need and it was used by those who were at the wedding, and in some ways that could be considered a blessing, just ask the bride whose big day was about to have a major problem.
I myself have never witnessed such miracles, but I have seen lives changed as people have turned their lives around when they have either learned of the Lord for the first time or come back to him after falling away, my own life as a good example. I have seen this both inside and outside the LDS church. Living truth is a blessing regardless of the religion that teaches you to follow that truth. The joy I feel from doing what I know to be the things that my Heavenly Father wants me to do brings me so much more than gold dust ever could.
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September 27, 2010 at 3:26 am
ama49
Hi Ken,
I agree with you. When I hear of people doing miraculous things but not having really anything other than a spectacular miracle come of it, I think of Simon the sorcerer in Acts, chapter 8. He did many amazing things and many people mistook him for a prophet. If it doesn’t bring them closer to God, then it’s not from God.
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September 25, 2010 at 11:27 pm
Doug
Amen Ken! There is no miracle greater than that of a life transformed by God.
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September 27, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Ken
Well Doug, it looks like your hope for me to have an opportunity to teach has come to be. I have been asked to give a talk in church on the 17th. (We don’t have preachers in the LDS Church, all the members take turns doing the preaching by way of invitation) Also I have been asked to work in the Sunday School Program as a councilor. Should be plenty of opportunities for teaching.
Getting back to the topic of scripture, this coming weekend the church is having what we call General Conference. Twice a year the leaders of the Church speak to all the members by way of Cable Television. It is televised on cable channel 23 I believe. There is a morning and afternoon session both Saturday and Sunday (9 am and 1 pm, that’s my time here in the North West). Each runs for about 2 hours. Thought you might be interested. This would give you a good chance to compare and contrast what LDS leaders are teaching with what is taught in the Bible. The conferences are recorded in church magazines and sent out. The members are encouraged to go back and review the messages and apply them into their daily lives just the same as the officially accepted scriptures. So they basically hold the same value for instruction as do the scriptures. And if you have any questions you can bring it to this foram.
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September 27, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Cal
Hi guys,
I live in Newport, New Hampshire, to answer Ken’s question belatedly.
About the gold dust: Charisma magazine did mention an instance where someone was faking the gold dust thing. Satan always shows up with his counterfeits.
As to whether the gold dust is ever really from God, I think of the creative ways in which God poured out his judgment on Egypt. . . . frogs, locusts, etc. Why didn’t he pour out his judgment in a plainer manner? Think of the all the weird and cute animals God created, the beautiful sunsets. It’s obvious that he is imaginative. I think sometimes traditional Christians (not meaning you guys) make God and Jesus out to be cold, formal, and non-fun. I think of the older versions of the movies about Jesus’ life where the guy who played Jesus was always serious, meditative. I’m sure he was that way lots of the time. But consider Hebrews 1:9 where it says Jesus was set above his companions by the anointing of joy. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit. He was full of the Spirit, so he must have been full of joy a lot of the time.
But I agree with you guys that one has to be discerning and ask if the fruit of these phenomenons is good. Like one of you said, a changed life is by far the most wonderful miracle.
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September 27, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Doug
I wish you well Ken. It is clear to me that you have a passion to teach and you are a wealth of information and insights.
Regarding General Conference I receive three denominational magazine: The Christian Reformed Church’s Banner, The Assembly of God’s Pentecostal Ev angel and your churches Ensign-I also get BYU on my cable line up so I’ll follow along.
Cal, is the Gold Dust miracle still going on? I haven’t heard much about it lately.
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September 27, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Ken
Cal, does make a good point. Jesus had to be the type of person that was a lot of fun to be around. Little children always wanted to be around him and as he told his disciples to let them come, for us such was the kingdom of God.
You look at the type of adults that children like to be around, I don’t think the images the early movies portrayed of Jesus would be what drew in little children. Not to say I think he would have been silly, but he did have and still does have a warm smile that would draw good people to him, especially little children. It will be wonderful to see that smile. But come to think of it, everytime we do something to help someone in need I think we see his smile in their face. So I think I need to work on doing that more.
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September 27, 2010 at 10:32 pm
Cal
That’s cute, Ken. And I say ditto after Doug: I wish you well with your teaching. I just said a little prayer for you.
I also get Ensign, Doug. You sound interdenominational!
I haven’t heard much about the gold dust lately either. I didn’t mean to suggest it was real gold—just gold colored. I don’t think you guys would be quite so suspicious had you been there. I’ve known the pastor a long time. She (yes, she—uh, oh, another thing to discuss!) loves God with all her heart. She doesn’t invite kooks but established ministries with reputations for setting people free with the power of Christ.
Ama might be interested in what I just read in Ensign: Page 74 of the Sept. 2010 edition says, “Six years ago 80 percent of search engine results for the term “Mormon” were negative or inaccurate. Today the situation has improved. . . . Why the significant change? In addition to official Church Web sites, unofficial Web sites sharing positive information about the Church are spreading across the Web.”
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September 30, 2010 at 7:15 pm
ama49
Hey Cal,
You and Doug seem to be more informed than I am! I usually only read the Ensign conference issues. I’ll have to look up that article you mention.
My personal belief is that 3 years ago one of our apostles came out and said to us that it was time to share our testimonies online. The awesome thing was that about a month before he came out and said that, I felt the Holy Spirit move me to start this site. Elder Ballard coming out with that served as another witness. Through this site, I’ve seen the Spirit work some great miracles with people all over the world ranging from personal “temporal” issues to spiritual issues. I think all have come closer to God through it. I certainly have as I learn from others such as you guys here.
Thank you all for your testimonies and contribution.
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October 1, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Cal
Praise God for your apostle and your sensitivity to the Spirit! (“Praise God” is a common charismatic saying, in case you didn’t know :-))
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September 28, 2010 at 3:46 am
Doug
Ken-you remind me of the old hymn (our choir sang it on Sunday) There’s Sunshine in My Soul Today. When some of our older members complain about all the little kids running around in church-I always think of Jesus and picture him running around with them. The clear testimony of Scripture is that Jesus is a real joy giver. That is something we call all say ‘Amen’ to!
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September 28, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Ken
AMEN
And thank you for your prayer Cal.
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September 29, 2010 at 2:31 am
Cal
Let’s see . . . ama’s original topic was “LDS Definitions of Scripture: How do we know if something should be Considered Scripture?” I’m going to take the liberty of defining the topic further by asking, “How do we even know if the Bible itself is Scripture?”
Here’s my optimistic conclusion of our discussion:
I think we all agree that two of the ways that we can determine if something is Scripture are (1) listen to the witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, and (2) see if it works when we apply it to our lives, in other words, see if good fruit results.
Is that right, guys?
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September 29, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Ken
I think as a general guide that pretty well sums it up.
I have really enjoyed this discussion and all the paths that it has lead us down.
As far as looking at the Bible as scripture, I just started reading a book by William Dever. He has written several books as a Biblical scholar and archeologist. He looks at the archeological evidence to determine what life was like for ancient Israel and compares what religious practice was like for the masses vs. what we read in the Bible after several redactors have determined what stories to tell and what facts to cover.
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October 4, 2010 at 3:59 am
Do Mormons Believe in Universal Salvation? « Grace for Grace
[…] 4, 2010 by ama49 In a recent discussion someone brought up the fact that my views as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day […]
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