Recently, a fellow friend from another Christian faith asked me to share my thoughts on Jesus Christ with the intention of posting it on his site in order to help other Christians with the concept of Mormons (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) being Christians.
I’ll open with a quote taken from C.S. Lewis’s book, Mere Christianity. When defining what a Christian is, Lewis references Acts 11:26 and states: “the original, obvious meaning…Christians was first given at Antioch to the disciples, to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles” (pg XV).
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ (LDS) bible dictionary shares a similar definition of what a Christian is: “A name first given to believers in Jesus Christ at Antioch in Syria, about A.D. 43 (Acts 11: 26).”
Therefore, the heart of what it means to be a Christian is first believing in Jesus Christ and then following Jesus as His disciple.
With this definition in mind, I will move on to share my thoughts on a brief history of Mormonism and what following Jesus Christ as a disciple, or in other words, being a Christian means for me as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Following Jesus Christ was the young boy, Joseph Smith’s most pressing desire. In the early 1800’s he was seeking truth and struggling in knowing where to find it. He saw much truth in many Christian faiths, but at that time, the Christian faiths were contending with each other. In regards to this time he states the following (which can be found in Joseph Smith’s History):
…there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
He goes on to write:
…so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.
My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Joseph Smith then decided to act on this scripture. He went to a nearby forest, knelt down and prayed out loud and in pure sincerety and earnestness. As he was praying, he received an amazing answer to prayer and saw a vision, similar to the one
Stephen has in the new testament. Joseph Smith says in his own words:
I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me…When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Through a sincere desire to follow Jesus Christ by searching, showing faith, humility, and prayer, Joseph Smith was able to be instructed by Jesus Christ himself as to how He wanted His church and followers to be. One of these included bringing forth the
Book of Mormon, which acts as another witness of Jesus Christ, which the Bible states is necessary for all truth to be established (see
2 Cor 13:1). It is a collection of writings that are similar to the Bible about the sermons and letters of other prophets that believed in Jesus, but didn’t live in the same area as Jerusulem, where the Bible takes place. The Book of Mormon is necessary because it confirms and clarifies truths about the gospel of Jesus Christ that are found in the Bible.
For example, we read in the Bible about how to be saved through faith, or confessing the name of Jesus, and we read about people needing to be baptized in order to enter into the kingdom of Jesus. We read about the Holy Ghost and we read about salvation through the grace of God and being judge for our works after this life. For someone seeking to follow Jesus Christ, it can be confusing to know how exactly to follow Jesus, just as it was for Joseph Smith.
Thankfully, we have the answers in the Book of Mormon. In the book of 3 Nephi, Jesus appears to a group of his disciples after his resurrection. This group of disciples was struggling with issues on how to follow Jesus Christ completely. Some of what Jesus tells them is that the church should be called by His name and that the gospel of Jesus Christ that leads to salvation is: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring in faith until the end (see
3 Nephi chapter 27).
I will conclude by sharing some personal experiences along with my testimony.
At a certain point in my life, I too was struggling with faith and a testimony of Jesus Christ. Similar to the experience of Joseph Smith, I read scripture found in the Bible and also in the Book of Mormon that testified of Jesus Christ. I wanted to have my own personal witness that there is a Jesus and how to follow Him. As I prayed for the first time in sincerety to know, I was filled with a sweet, peaceful feeling that spoke to my soul. I knew it was God speaking to me through his Holy Spirit. I decided to embrace the Church of Jesus Christ’s teachings and follow the gospel of Jesus Christ through faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ I have made a commitment to God through being baptized that I will be His disciple. Baptism was just the beginning though. Being a disciple of Jesus to me means asking for His Spirit to give me strength in following His example in all things and repenting and asking for His mercy and grace when I fail (daily) and enduring in faith by “taking up the cross and following Him” (Matt 16:24). Taking up the cross means that I should deny myself of ungodly things and strive to do what Jesus would have me do as a father, neighbor, employee, brother, husband, son, and friend. As I do this, my life is richly blessed and so are the lives of those around me. I believe this is the greatest contribution I can make to society to help fight the evils we see around us today. Through the blessing of the Lord’s atonement, when he suffered for me in the garden of gethsemane and died on the cross, as I do these things, I have faith and hope that someday I will sit at the feet of Jesus and hear him say “…well done thou good and faithful servant. Thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
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August 21, 2010 at 1:50 am
Cal
I’d like to issue a challenge to Christians of all faiths to begin to show love for each other instead of snubbing, arguing with, and condemning each other. When all Christians come together in unity then the world will know that Jesus was sent by God and that God loves them just as he loves Jesus (John 17:23)!
This is the will of God.
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August 21, 2010 at 5:16 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
Thank you for your comments. The words you share reflect those that I have on my “purpose” page here on this site. This is a quote from Joseph Smith that I fully subscribe to:
“Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination.”
It’s interesting that this quote is 150 years old and we still are trying to gain headway with these issues…
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August 21, 2010 at 12:48 pm
symphonyofdissent
A very nice testimony. I am glad to see that you are so involved in such constructive interfaith dialogue.
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August 21, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Cal
Yes, I love that quote of Joseph.
I’m ready to die for you if it ever became necessary.
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August 22, 2010 at 1:05 am
Cal
Hi symphonyofdissent,
Please, tell us more about yourself.
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August 29, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Doug
Aaron, you have a sweet spirit about you that is evident to all-even your critics. I must admit, while I disagree with many of the doctrines of your church and do not except the BOM as the Word of God-I cannot deny your love for our Savior. Thank you for sharing your testimony (and your heart) with all of us. May God bless you and keep you.
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August 29, 2010 at 9:49 pm
ama49
Hi Doug,
Thank you for the sincere response. I pray the same for you as well.
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August 30, 2010 at 1:50 am
Cal
Doug, you have a godly spirit as well.
Have you ever read the BOM?
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August 31, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Doug
Thank you Cal-as do you!
I have read large portions of the BOM (all of 1 and 2 Nephi and other books and sections) but I must confess that I have not read it from cover to cover. As I do not believe Jesus visited the Americas and I do not believe there were pre-columbian Jewish people here-it is impossible for me to accept the BOM as an inspired work. The lack of evidence for the historical trustworthiness of the BOM is a challenge for the church. While there are some challenges for Bible believers-it is nothing like the problems faced by those who believe in the Book of Mormon. I’ve poured through articles in FARMS and yet there is not one city mentioned in the BOM that has been discovered yet. What is so interesting, however, is the basic message of the BOM-it is very much in harmony with the Bible-I do not really see any distinctively different doctrines taught within it’s pages. I might argue that the BOM is at odds with some of the teachings currently taught by the church. What do you think about the BOM? Have you read it?
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September 9, 2010 at 12:37 am
Cal
Hi Doug,
Your comments on the BOM are interesting. You’ve investigated it some I see.
I’ve read it all, parts of it twice. The more I read it the more impressed I am with its similarity to the Bible, like you said, and the power of its spirit. It all seems to be in virtual agreement with the Bible.
The lack of archeological findings on its behalf is interesting.
You might be interested in a video I have from the LDS called “Evidences of the Book of Mormon.” It’s an hour long casual talk by Daniel C. Peterson, sitting behind a desk. He is or was one of the “big wigs” at FARMS. He discusses textual analysis, physical evidence, as well as some geographical evidence. What impresses me is the chiasmus in the BOM.
Another argument in favor of its inspiration is the almost impossibility that Joseph came up with it off the top of his head!
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September 9, 2010 at 1:07 am
Doug
I’ll have to check it out. I’m not sure I accept the fact that Joseph could not create a work like the BOM-he literally built the largest city in the state of Illinois in a matter of a few years-he was a very intelligent man. It is also possible that other works that already existed could have been used as a basis for the BOM. My understanding is that there were others who held to a lost tribe theory regarding native Americans-this was not unique to the Latter-day Saints-my LDS friends can set me straight on this I’m sure. While I do not accept him as a prophet I believe Joseph was in many ways one of those bigger than life people (as was Brigham!). Do you personally accept the BOM as Scripture and believe it is truly another testament of Jesus Christ? If so, how did you come to that conclusion? I mean no disrespect when I say that you are one of the most unique Charismatic Christians I’ve ever known!
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September 15, 2010 at 1:36 am
Cal
I checked out the website for your church, Doug. Are you the pastor? I grew up in a Reformed church—altho it didn’t call itself that—and am thankful for its influence on me.
Do you believe Joseph was a Christian?
To answer your questions, I’m not prepared to go so far as to say the BOM is Scripture. I’ll let God answer that one! But since it agrees with the Bible, I don’t have to compromise my charismatic beliefs to say I believe it’s the most anointed book I’ve ever read besides the Bible. (My opinion of The Doctrine & Covenants, however, isn’t anywhere near as high.)
One of my most treasured books is “He and I” by Gabrielle Bossis (1874-1950). She was french, and a Franciscan I believe. When the Lord spoke to her, she wrote it down. The book is a journal of what she heard. It’s so good that I almost want to keep it a secret but that’s the selfishness in me.
However, I rank the BOM higher than “He and I” because, for example, “He and I” doesn’t speak much about the severity of God. I believe that to fully understand the love of God we have to know of God’s severity as well as his kindness (Romans 11:22 NASB). The BOM has both.
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September 15, 2010 at 2:40 am
Doug
Yep! Guilty as charged!
I was christened Catholic, born again in the Reformed Church and re-baptized in a Full Gospel Church. Regarding Joseph (a man I consider a visionary) and his being saved that’s up to Jesus! Having met LDS people (including Aaron) I have no doubt that some have the Spirit of the Living God within them. What are your thoughts regarding the BOM and the doctrines it teaches and how they fit to the doctrines currently being taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS?
You seem like such a nice guy-how cool to discover a Reformed Church thread in your life.
Your Brother,
Doug
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September 16, 2010 at 1:17 am
Cal
I think God is using blogs—which I am fairly new to—to teach me how to be nicer. On one blog (not this one) I was so tempted to get pulled into the kind of arguments that don’t do anyone much good. I think I crossed over the line of temptation . . . but God will forgive me!
To answer your question, I feel the LDS would be better off sticking more closely to the BOM. As far as I can tell, there is no support in it for any of their incorrect teachings! Seems to me that if Mormons stopped telling evangelicals that it is Scripture, and just told them it is a very good book, evangelicals would be much more apt to read it and accept it. But I can’t ask the Mormons to go against their convictions and be deceptive.
Why did you become interested in the LDS?
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September 16, 2010 at 2:42 am
Doug
That’s a great question! I have been interested in the Latter-day Saints since I was a teenager. Following a visit by missionaries I considered converting however their teachings about the Godhead and the whole temple thing just didn’t set right with me. There have been times when I was ready to write them off as a non-Christian sect-but there is a kindness and decency evident in many of the Mormons I have met. I continue enjoy learning about them and meeting (via e-mail) nice people like Aaron and others. I appreciate the stand the church takes on moral issues I care about and it is regretful to me that my own denomination is not as courageous. In these difficult days I believe evangelicals and LDS need to come together as we share much in common. How did you come to have an interest in the LDS people?
By the way-thanks for sharing about “He and I” I’ll have to check it out.
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September 16, 2010 at 1:33 pm
Cal
Very interesting!
You said, “There have been times when I was ready to write them off as a non-Christian sect. . . .”
So you classify them now as a CHRISTIAN sect?
You said, “-but there is a kindness and decency evident in many of the Mormons I have met.”
You are doing what Jesus says—knowing them by their fruit (Mt 7:15-20)! I think the accuracy of a person’s doctrine is evident in the fruit in their lives. If someone is full of the love of Christ, their doctrine is good; if they have only a little of the love of Christ, their doctrine needs improvement. Evangelicals pick on Mormon false teachings to condemn them—some of which have little to do with their everyday walk—but all the time are guilty of slander. Their slander is evidence that their own doctrine is lacking.
Your story is similar to mine.
You and ama and I are unusual, pioneers. It’s all God’s doing. I can’t help but wonder if God would have us work as a team to bring change to the body of Christ. But I don’t know what that would be at this point other than what we’re already doing. My next step is to put some more articles on my website and go step by step.
I’ll answer your question when I have more time.
In the meantime, take care my brother.
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September 17, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Cal
Doug, I met with a couple Mormon missionaries shortly after I became a Christian 27 years ago. I came to the conclusion at that time that Mormonism was not Christian, partly because I caught them twisting Scripture. I did see some of the fruit of the Spirit in them but my judgments didn’t allow me to recognize it as such. There was a veil over my eyes.
To make a long story short, four years later when I visited the Joseph Smith Memorial in Vermont, God gave me his perspective. I saw that they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that their false teachings concern non-essential matters. I also could see clearly the fruit of the Spirit in the lady who led me on a tour of the rooms of the memorial.
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September 17, 2010 at 5:22 pm
ama49
Hi Cal and Doug,
I’ve been totally busy lately and haven’t checked this for awhile but I’m very impressed with your conversations. I too feel very moved by the Lord to try and find common ground with my fellow Christian brothers.
I’m impressed with your sincerity…both of you.
My views reflect those of Cal’s in many ways. Before I went to the temple and all the other LDS stuff that came later, I read the Book of Mormon. I felt similar to Parley P Pratt, who was one of the original LDS apostles. I couldn’t put the book down and I felt the Lord’s Spirit pour out on me. At the end of the Book there is a challenge to pray and ask God if the things in the Book of Mormon are true and if you pray with sincere intent and desire, God will manifest the truth of it to you. I did this and God spoke to me in a very powerful way. The Book of Mormon is scripture as is the Bible.
I think most Christians can come closer to God by reading the Book of Mormon. I agree with Cal in that parts of the Doctrine and Covenants are not consistent with scripture you see in the Bible. Some of D&C I do not necessarily agree with. Some of it I think is very inspiring. Personally, I have’nt had the witness of the other Mormon scripture that I have had with the Book of Mormon.
As you both have mentioned, when you have read the Book of Mormon with open eyes, God works in you and you feel His Spirit.
Also, as God works in those of us who immerse ourselves in scripture, the fruits of the Spirit discussed in Galations are manifest. Those of us who are Christians and who pray, read scripture daily, serve, etc. are filled with the love and Spirit of Christ and we recognize this in others.
I wish I could get some more LDS people in on this discussion to help them see you’re guys’ sincerety and love of Jesus. Many LDS think Christians are all bad and out to get them. I think most Christians are just misinformed about LDS as are LDS about Christians. I would like to see more cooperation between them.
Cal, you said you haven’t had a spiritual witness yet of the Book of Mormon. Have you prayed to God to know if it is scripture with a sincere desire and intent?
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September 17, 2010 at 10:59 pm
Ken
Cal, Doug & ama,
Just dropped into you blog and thought I would add to it.
I am a life long member of the LDS church and have always considered myself a christian.
I have often wondered if I grew up outside the LDS church and came across the BoM in my latter years would I be able to read it with the same perspective? I have read both the BoM and Bible many many times. I do believe both books to contain true events that discribe and tell the stories of the experiences of true people that once lived.
Many times while reading in both the BoM and Bible, as I have contemplated on the events that the writer has shared with the reader, I have felt the spirit testify to me of the reality of that person and the experience of that persons life. The common thread in both books from the many writers is to share with us that they too believed in Christ just as do we.
I have seen both the good and the bad toward the LDS church from other christian faiths, and by far the good out ways the bad. Even though we each may feel there is some misguided beliefs, the fact that both sides believe deeply in the need for a savior, and a belief that Jesus Christ is he to whom we all look for that salvation, should set us all on solid ground from which we can work together toward greater understanding of Christ and how we can grow closer to him.
I have two teen age sons whom I love very much. And when they fight with each other it breaks my heart. I can only imagine how God must feel when his children fight, especially when it is in his name.
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September 18, 2010 at 12:15 am
ama49
Hi Ken,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your testimony. I whole-heartedly agree with you and appreciate your thoughtful comments about your children.
I remember one day my younger brother and I were fighting and my Dad came down and in a loud voice told us to stop. He then went and picked up a Book of Mormon, held it in his hands and testified to us that he knew what was in the book was true and that it taught of being kind and loving to each other. He then left the room. My brother and I didn’t fight for a long time after that.
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September 18, 2010 at 1:48 am
Cal
Thanks for stopping by Ken & ama.
You guys—especially Doug—might be interested in a new post by Tim of the LDS & Evangelical Conversations blog. He attended an event of two “big wigs”—Dr. Millet & some evangelical—conversing publicly.
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September 19, 2010 at 4:12 pm
ama49
Hi Cal,
Thanks for the reference. I read it, and it is definitely interesting. I think it is very fair to say that if you just focus on salvation and the Bible and Book of Mormon, it is very easy for Christians and Mormons to find a lot of common ground. And the whole issue of grace/works is really just semantics in most cases.
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September 20, 2010 at 12:47 am
Cal
Yes, that’s what I discovered also!
I imagine the bridge in the picture at the top of this page in an unfinished state. You’re on one side of the pond putting stones in place and I’m on the other side of the pond putting stones in place. We’re getting closer to connecting, at which point people will be able to walk across!
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September 18, 2010 at 2:06 am
Cal
I just read your letters, Ken & ama.
Ken, you’re in the bridge builders club! Praise God. Keep in touch.
Ama asked, “Cal, you said you haven’t had a spiritual witness yet of the Book of Mormon. Have you prayed to God to know if it is scripture with a sincere desire and intent?”
Yes, and I do have a witness, but I suspect that evangelicals have a stricter definition of “Scripture” than do you guys. I may investigate that some more sometime. It may be that I could call it scripture according to your definition but not according to theirs!
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September 19, 2010 at 4:04 pm
ama49
Hi Cal,
Good point. LDS are a lot more liberal on what they call scripture.
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September 19, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Doug
I really enjoy the thought and insights that are being shared-thanks! Let me ask a follow up question to Cal and Aaron’s conversation regarding scripture: How does the LDS church define scripture? My view (and the prevailing view of evangelicals) of the Bible is that its words are God breathed-the Holy Spirit guided the writings of the dozens of people who wrote what has become the Bible and that each word is inspired. At the same time the Spirit preserved the uniqueness and personality of its many writers. What is the prevailing understanding of the Latter-day Saints regarding scripture-both how its defined and how its inspired?
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September 20, 2010 at 1:14 am
Cal
AMA is the one to answer that, of course.
I do know that the LDS considers the inspired words of its prophets to be scripture (2009 ed. of “Gospel Principles,” p. 48). There are many prophets in the charismatic movement, but we would never consider even their highest level prophecies equal to Scripture.
One definition of “Scripture” that I ran across said that it is writings appealed to as the final authority in questions of doctrine. If the BOM disagreed at some point with the Bible, I would go with what the Bible says. That’s one thing that makes me hesitate to call the BOM Scripture. . . . But that’s just my personal view—I’m not claiming that my view is Scripture. 😉
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September 20, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Ken
One of the many things I love about scripture is that it is not just prophets saying “God said this or that” or that it is just books of rules and commands. For the most part it is the history of their life and their journey to do the work that God gave them to do. Much of the scriptures are these people recording the day to day events and then passed it down for a testimony to us of how the spirit worked in their lives. The spirit is still very much alive today and working in the lives of many people and these stories are passed along and shared with others, much the same way Paul shared what happened to him and how he learned who Jesus really was.
The testimony of one person to another of how their life has changed can have just as much of an impact as Paul’s record of his conversion. The spirit can and does use both of these tools to bear witness that Jesus is the Christ. Does this mean that any time someone shares how the spirit worked in their life, that this is scripture? No, but I don’t know that a true witness of how the spirit has worked in someone’s life can be far from it.
The difference between the two is one is given from someone who has been called specifically by God to bear that witness to the world, where as the other is a person who has felt the spirit and shares that with a friend (something we have also been instructed to do). Both are from the same source so long as they are true.
So when we read the Bible or BoM, we read commandments that we must obay, we read prophecies of events to unfold, but for the most part when we read scripture we read of the lives of these people that testify to us. They testifed that they saw that Jesus would come. They testified that Jesus came and has risen again. They testify that he will come again. That is the gospel both books and all their writers bear witness of.
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September 20, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Doug
Thanks Cal and Ken for your insights. Ken you have a nice spirit about you as well and I appreciate your being part of our conversation. Like both of you-I too believe the Holy Spirit speaks through people. Let me share an example of this. When my wife and I were preparing to leave the area we were ministering to move to our current location-area pastors and church leaders prayed over us and someone wrote down what the Spirit was saying through them. I must confess that in our move down here that paper got shoved into a book and I did not rediscover it until nearly 10 years later. When I discovered it one day-I wept at the things that were said and prayed for and how they had all come to pass. One person foretold that my wife and I would have another child (this has been a desire in our hearts for quite some time) and within weeks of the move my wife conceived and we had a beautiful healthy boy (who is now 12!). While I would not call that paper scripture-it most definitely flows with the power of the Spirit. Let me ask this question-can a scripture or revelation contradict an established scripture? Is there a lipnus test for scripture being scripture?
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September 20, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Ken
Again, when we speak of scripture and we use the Bible or the BoM as example of scripture we must realize that we are talking about several things that have been recorded. We are talking about revelations where God has revealed to one person things that are to be shared with all. Revelation has been to inform us of who God is and what he expects of us and how we are to treat each other. Revelation can also be warnings of what will happen if we don’t change our behavior. Contained in the revelations are information that is used to establish what we understand to be doctrine, or truths that are consistent and always true. And finally scripture contains and is for the most part a history of God and his people.
So when we are looking for consistency, we search through writings from over thousand of years from various writers each recording what God has revealed to them. Each then has the human element as well as the divine. So when we try to take all this information and put it all together to make one consistent and congruent understanding, well that is a major task. Is it possible to find what we believe to be contradictions? I believe that answer to that question is yes. But we would assume truth does not change, so what may appear to be a contradiction may well not be a contradiction after all. Because scripture is given to us for the most part in story form we must read through the story and understand what is happening at the time the people lived and what their understanding was.
There are many things than can come into play when we read the historical accounts contained in the Bible and BoM. But bottom line is that we should expect to see a consistent truth. I believe that the main purpose of both records is that of a testimony that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he provided the atonement needed to save all mankind. Both these records consistently and accurately bear this same witness. Since they both testify of this same truth, then the doctrines in each should be consistent. But we must be very careful when we try to apply a lipnus test. We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, and we can’t pretend to know the mind of the writer ether. I think there is much more to it than just comparing one verse to another.
Remember, the Jews had the writings that we now call the old testament. They studied it daily and could quote most all of it by heart. As Christians we believe and testify that as Christ said. “Search the scripture … for they testify of me” The scriptures at the time Christ said that only consisted of the Old testament (at least for those to whom he said this). But the people who knew it best didn’t know it at all. What did they lack, that caused them to totally miss the only purpose of the whole thing? The spirit, which is the spirit of revelation. Even today you can go on line and find where they can show from the scriptures, that Jesus Christ does not fit what the scriptures say. So again I say we must be very careful when we try to determine what truth is in the scriptures and what constitues a contradiction.
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September 21, 2010 at 3:03 am
Doug
If I’m understanding what you are saying, Ken, revelation is just that. What might appear as a contradiction is just greater light (given by the Lord) concerning a truth. I agree with that andI totally agree that all scripture points us to Jesus Christ. I’m still a bit fuzzy regarding how LDS view scripture and how it contrasts to how evangelicals view scripture (other than that you accept more scriptures than we do).
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September 22, 2010 at 1:36 am
ama49
Doug, Cal, and Ken,
You’ve all brought up some very good points about scripture. I haven’t thought of writing what the LDS view scripture to be until now. This will be th topic of my next post. Stay tuned and contribute on that post anything you feel inspired to write about or question. Good discussion guys!
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September 21, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Cal
I think it’s a good question. I’m listening in for the answer as well!
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September 21, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Ken
I was reading in the New Testament last night, where Christ was on the Mt. of transfiguration. Moses and Elijah were standing with Christ, and God’s voice was heard through the clouds. As I read about this event I thought, Jesus must have told Peter James and John who the other two people were standing there with him, as they had never seen either Moses or Elijah. So as they were leaving, they asked Jesus about the Scribes who kept saying that Elijah must come first. I can’t help but think maybe the reason this question came to their minds at this point was that Jesus just told them that one of the persons standing there was Elijah. Jesus responded by saying that Elijah would come to restore all things, and that he had come and he was treated the same way they were going to treat him. Then they realized that he was talking about John the Baptist. Yet John himself denied that he was the Return of Elijah.
This is just one example of many that shows how it is possible to read scripture and think we know exactly what is being said, when in fact God has something totally different in mind. The greater light comes from being in tune to the spirit. If we were alive at the time of Christ the only way we would have known that John was the return of Elijah, or that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah, would have been by being open to the witness of the spirit. Those who totally rejected him were the ones that thought they new the Old Testament the best, and new what to look for. Jesus didn’t go to the synagogues to find the most studied of the O.T. to find his chosen followers. He found them among fishermen, humble and open to the spirit. Then he opened their understanding to the scriptures, because they were humble enough to understand with their heart as well as their mind.
Today we must always have that same open heart and mind to receive the truth as it is revealed. It did not happen all at once for those who followed Jesus then and it is the same for us today. As he said “If we will do his will we will know of the truth…”. We learn the truth by doing not by learning.
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September 21, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Doug
Thanks, Ken, for your great insights into the Transfiguration. You are correct in saying that the religious leaders of Jesus day failed to connect the dots-they were blind to the true nature and mission of Jesus-their unbelief opened the door for the Gentile people to be grafted onto the Jewish tree (Romans 11). However, you give the disciples far more credit than they deserve-they were unexceptional men-Jesus called Peter Satan (Matthew 17:23) and the disciples men of little faith (Matthew Matthew 16:8 and 17:20) and lacking in understanding (Matthew 15:16). Peter denied Jesus not once but three times and they all fled Jesus in the garden (although John was at the cross). It was not until Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that these men became the spiritual dynamos that turned their world upside down-it was the work of the Spirit in their lives (as-in the end-it is for all of us).
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September 21, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Ken
But keep in mind too that it was several years after these events took place that these men made the record of what happened. So at the time they made the record they were all filled with the Holy Spirit that brought all things to their rememberance. They had a much greater perspective at time of the recording of the events than they did at the time to events took place.
And yet even in this state of limited faith, they did have faith sufficient to follow Jesus. Peter had recieved a witness from the father who Jesus was even before he later denied him.
They had much to learn and much to face before they would be ready to take on the task that Jesus was to hand over to them. But it all started with the faith much smaller than a mustard seed. They planted that seed in their hearts and nurished that seed daily, and even though at times they failed a felt like running away, in the end they stayed true to the faith. It was these struggles within themselves that they faces each day that made that tiny seed turn into a mountain of faith that gave them the strength to follow their savior even to the giving of their own lives for that witness and counted it a blessing to do so.
they learned the truth of who Jesus was by doing what he said even when it didn’t make sense to them at the time. To have that kind of faith deserves all the credit and respect that can be offered, inspite of their failures. I only hope that my faith to walk without knowing for sure what the Lord will reveal next will be something close to what these men had in the beginning of their journey.
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September 22, 2010 at 12:06 am
Ken
I think a good analagy that can help us to better understand who these chosen men were, would be a military trainer working with a group of men for special ops. such as Navy SEALS. In their training they may be called weak or soft or lazy etc. Not because they are, but because their leader and trainer knows that their potential is so much more than they realize. And because he knows that the mission that lies ahead of them is going to require their very best, much more than most any of us will ever have to face. That they will be required to lay down their lives and still have the strength to turn to the father and say “Forgive them for they know not what they do”
I have no doubt that this was in hearts of these strong men as they laid down their lives in testimony of their master in following his example to “love others as I have loved you”.
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September 22, 2010 at 1:20 am
Cal
Ken said,
“Today we must always have that same open heart and mind to receive the truth as it is revealed. . . . As he said “If we will do his will we will know of the truth…”. We learn the truth by doing not by learning.
This is a good point.
I’d like to ask, though, Were you still thinking of the definition of “Scripture” when you wrote it?
If so, were you saying that whatever God reveals to us by his Spirit is Scripture?
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September 22, 2010 at 3:24 am
LDS Definitions of Scripture: How do we know if something should be Considered Scripture? « Grace for Grace
[…] 22, 2010 by ama49 On one of my most recent posts, some LDS and non-LDS christians were having a great discussion about what the definition of […]
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September 22, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Doug
Thanks Ken. While you make some very thoughtful remarks I still believe you give those men far more credit then they deserve. An unlikely man who did exhibit great faith was the centurion (Luke 7:9) in all of Israel Jesus did not find faith like this gentile man. Your point about the disciples writing the scriptures (gospels, epistles, revelations) is right on-they were fully converted and full of the Holy Spirit-no question about that.
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September 22, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Ken
I have digressed and for that I apologize, I will try to get back on track.
What is scripture very much depends on what definition we use to describe the word.
Heavenly Father loves all of his children and will bless their lives (not only while hear on earth but throughout all eternity) by any means they are open to. If we define scripture as any revelation given by God, then any true prompting given to a person by the spirit, one could say, has value as scripture, but only for that person to whom it is given. The paper that Doug referred to in one of his earlier posts is a good example of the great love that our Heavenly Father has for us and how he will reveal a promise of blessings if we are open to receive it and it is within his will. For him this promise is as real as any he will read from the scriptures.
But generally we reserve the term scriptures to be those revelations given by God to chosen prophets (and also apostles since the time of Christ). These revelations or instructions are on a more broad scope in which the promises can be applied to anyone willing to follow the requirements given.
But we must remember that truly understanding scripture is as important as the question of what is scripture. This requires that we remain in tune to the spirit which is the spirit of revelation. If we try to decipher, or try to apply a litmus test to scripture based on our own human understanding then we run the very real risk of falling into same trap that those who studied the Old Testament so very carefully yet rejected the savior when he stood before them doing the work that his father gave him to do.
These people were very careful in putting together a litmus test so that they would know when the promised Messiah had come. But they left out one very important component, and that was to listen to the spirit of revelation. They fell into the old trap of studying the words of the prophets from the past and rejecting the prophets in their own time.
Jesus said that John the Baptist came to restore all things. John restored prophecy and revelation, and this revelation restored the true understanding of what had been written by all the prophets of old. Thus, through John the Baptist revelation was restored and understanding of all revelation to that point had been restored, thus restoring all things.
So scripture is revelation given by God to his chosen prophets, but more importantly, understanding scripture is remaining open to the spirit of revelation past, present and future.
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September 22, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Ken
Cal,
to answer your question directly
“I’d like to ask, though, Were you still thinking of the definition of “Scripture” when you wrote it?”
Yes,
The spirit will bear witness of the truth and the true meaning of scripture and we must put forth the effort to receive that witness.
As I mentioned before, during his earthly ministry the savior explained to those who had a hard time excepting who he was, that if they would just live their lives according to the principles that he taught them that this action would bring the witness from the spirit that what he taught was true. And that if what he taught was true and that truth blessed their lives, then it must hold true that he was indeed a true messenger from the father, and that the testimony he bore and the testimony his father bore gave two witnesses of the truth.
Both the Bible and the BoM testify that we can learn the truth of all things if we will but ask with real faith and true intent, nothing wavering. To me true intent and nothing wavering doesn’t mean I will sit back and do nothing more until I receive and answer to my prayers. To me this means that I will continue to study with real desire to know and understand. And if a principle seems unclear to me then I will apply it to my life so long as the application of the principle leads me to do good and not evil, and in so doing the truth will be made manifest by the spirit through my actions.
Here is a very simple example. Jesus taught, if a man asks you to go a mile, go 2 miles, (that is a paraphrase). Have you ever been asked by your boss to do something that was the responsibility of someone else? Your first reaction is to say, no that’s not my job, but then you feel the promptings of the spirit, so you get in and do the work plus a little more to make sure it’s done right. And after doing this you feel good that you did the right thing, even if there was no acknowledgement from you Boss. This is a very basic example of how we can apply true principles to learn and understand true teachings. Both the Bible and the BoM are full of such teachings, not only by instruction, but also by example, and only by studying these books can we learn how to apply them into our daily lives and receive the blessings promised.
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September 23, 2010 at 1:52 am
Cal
Very good, Ken.
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September 23, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Ken
As we try to find a way to understand what scripture is, it has kept me up at night and caused me to think a lot. Might I try answering the question about what scripture is from and LDS perspective with a more practical hands on answer vs. a philosophical one.
For me as a LDS, Asking “What is scripture?” is kind of like asking “What is swimming?” This doesn’t seem to make much sense I know, but allow me to explain my thinking.
If someone, who had never been in the water asked, What is swimming?, you might try to explain it to them, or you might hand them a book on swimming and say “Here read this, it will explain what swimming is, and how to do it”. They take the book and read a couple chapters, thumb through it a few times, and look at the illustrations, then put the book down and go about their business. Then the next time you see them you ask. So did you read the book I gave you? They answer, Yes I read parts of it, but it didn’t make much sense to me. Then you ask, well did you get in the water and try some of the things you read? To which they answer, well no. At this point you realize that this person knows no more about swimming or how to swim than they did before you gave them the book.
The only way we can understand what scripture is, is by studying it seriously and then learning to apply the things we learn to our lives. A casual interest or even a very serious intellectual interest will never allow a person to learn what scriptures is, just like they could never learn what swimming really is.
After reading and studying you need to start by getting into the water, the shallow end of the pool is best. You try jumping into the deep end and before you know it every thing you’ve studied is out the window and you are frantically trying to get out of the pool , thinking “This swimming stuff is crazy, these people have no idea what they are talking about.” And as you learn how to keep yourself afloat and start to master the basic stokes, then you can start to swim around the pool and enter the deep end with no fear because you have mastered the basics.
We should look at the Book of Mormon in the same way. At the end of a casual reading of parts of the book or even a serious intellectual study of the book, you will still have no idea what this is all about. But if you will read the book and get into the water a apply the things you learn, then in time with lots of faith and continual prayer, it will all begin to unfold and you will understand what the scriptures are teaching you.
One might say, well I already have the Bible and I have read it, and it teaches me all I need to know about “swimming”. But as with anything else, the more we study and the more good sources we reach out to for more understanding, the better we will become at those things we really wish to learn and master in our lives.
The BoM along with the Bible and other books of revelation has helped a lot of LDS people become very good “swimmers” in the sea of life. But all of us can become better and better “swimmers” the more we study and the more we practice. I know that in my own life, when I have not turned to the scriptures on a regular basis to keep on top of my game, my “stokes” have gotten weaker and my “swimming” has gotten sloppy, even though I still remember how to swim. I hope is some way this makes sense.
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September 24, 2010 at 1:21 am
Cal
It makes sense, Ken. I’m glad you’re one who tests the Scriptures by applying them to your life. You’re like the wise man who built his house on the rock (Matt. 7:24).
I don’t know if you realize it, but ama sort of switched the discussion about Scripture over to his newest post. Other people are discussing the subject over at that forum.
Have a good evening in our Lord.
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