I received a very nice comment from the author of the blog “Evangelicals and Mormons for Jesus“. He wished me well as I try to help others come closer to God in my writings and also defended against a negative comment that a Christian had written about me and my beliefs.
Since I’m used to defending my faith to other Christians I was taken back by his comments and also felt united with a fellow faithful follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I decided to check out his blog and found a great “test” to see if Mormon’s, or LDS are Christians. Below is a comparison of what Christians believe in from the Bible to be saved and also what LDS believe taken from http://evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com/.
| Bible “‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:31). |
Mormon Church “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. It is necessary to our salvation” (Gospel Principles [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1997], 117). “Salvation cometh to none . . . except it be through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ” (Mosiah 3:12, Book of Mormon, quoted in Gospel Principles, 117). |
| Bible “Unless you repent, you too will all perish” (Luke 13:5). |
Mormon Church “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: . . . second, Repentance (Joseph Smith, The Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1:4). |
| Bible “‘Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness’” (2 Timothy 2:19). |
Mormon Church “We must forsake our sins.” (Gospel Principles, 124). |
| Bible “And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9). |
Mormon Church “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: . . . fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith, 1:4). |
| Bible “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14 KJV). |
Mormon Church “It is the Spirit that is the most effective teacher in any given situation. . . . We should . . . carefully listen for and record the unspoken impressions given by the Holy Ghost” (Daniel K. Judd, “Nourished by the Good Word of God,” Ensign, Nov. 2007, 94-95). “The adversary labors to dull our sensitivity to the promptings of the Spirit. . . . When we invite the Holy Ghost to fill our minds. . . . we feel strengthened, filled with peace and joy. We possess spiritual energy and enthusiasm.” (Elder Keith K. Hilbig, “Quench Not the Spirit Which Quickens the Inner Man,” Ensign, Nov. 2007, 37- 38). |
| Bible “If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.” (1 John 4:15). |
Mormon Church “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ” (Articles of Faith, 1:1). |
| Bible “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 John 5:1). |
Mormon Church “Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ)” (Elder David B. Haight, “The Sacrament–and the Sacrifice,” Ensign, Apr. 2007, 16). |
| Bible “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God” (1 John 4:2). |
Mormon Church “‘The Word was made flesh’. . . . the Word is Jesus Christ” (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1981], 10). “‘[Jesus] shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay’” (Mosiah 3:5, Book of Mormon, quoted in Gospel Principles, 63). |
| Bible “This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18). |
Mormon Church “And behold, he shall be born of Mary . . . she being a virgin . . . who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God” (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon). “Jesus was born of a virgin named Mary” (Gospel Principles, 63). |
| Bible “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). |
Mormon Church “I know that he lives. . . . He is our Lord and our God” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in “He Lives! The Witness of Latter-day Prophets,” Ensign, Mar. 2008, 10). |
| Bible “God presented him [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood” (Romans 3:25). |
Mormon Church “The Savior atoned for our sins by suffering in Gethsemane and by giving his life on the cross. . . . We accept Christ’s atonement by placing our faith in him” (Gospel Principles, 73, 75). “He [Jesus] took our sins upon himself” (Gospel Principles, 19). |
Clearly this fellow believer has done proper research into the LDS church and I appreciate that he used valid sources for what LDS actually believe rather than obscure quotes or other things random people may have said throughout the years that isn’t a main-stream belief of the LDS faith. In fact, I feel he is doing more good for the church than many of us members because he is not a member and they can trust him.
I hope that we as LDS Christians can do the same for our fellow Christians by acknowledging the common ground that we all stand on. There are many other issues out there that we need to be united on that we can further the cause of good in the world by working together and not fighting against each other.
Grace for Grace 
55 comments
Comments feed for this article
April 2, 2010 at 5:46 pm
larryco_
I really like this, but I also have a thought: sometimes I feel that LDS’s are a bit too needy of other people’s approval. I’m sure it’s human nature to want to be approved and liked, but living in Utah there’s a lot of concern over how we – and by “we” I mean us as a people, a church, a state (the HQ of Mormonism), an ethnic identity – are perceived. Every time I hear a fellow member getting huffy or upset about a comment that “we aren’t Christian”, I will remind them that we are the one’s sending 50,000 missionaries to predominantly christian countries to try to convert them to “restored Christianity”, implying that their form of religion does not meet our standards.
I’m sure that many LDS’s are concerned that the general perception of Mormon’s not being Christian will deter some from not investigating the church; but, judging by Pliny the Younger’s letter to the Roman emperor, it’s not as bad as the stuff being spread about Christianites in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
LikeLike
April 3, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Ezra
Larryco is right. Mormonism must stand on its own, independent of Christianity. I don’t want to misconstrue his words or intent.
As much as I would like to say that LDS and Christianity are compatible and the same, saying this would be a lie.
Similar thoughts, motifs, expressions, hopes? Yes.
But there is one reason it cannot be the same, and this is based on the word of Jesus from the cross: “Tetelestai,” which means, “IT IS FINISHED.”
These words signify that everything about our salvation is complete, finished and that the debt of sin is paid in full with Jesus’ death. His physical resurrection announces that his words were true and our faith is genuine and our hopes are secure–as it finds its fullness in him alone. “No one comes to the Father, but by me.”
There is now no need of temple or sacrifice or blood atonement.
To add to or take away is to declare that God has left things UNFINISHED: incomplete and the debt still unpaid. And that is no longer faith in Christ, but faith in self or faith in another.
But, it IS Finished. In Christ there is full atonement of our sins. The price paid, ALL that is needed is to believe.
Thanks for letting me share this,
in brotherly love and concern,
in Christ,
Ezra
LikeLike
April 3, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Mormon Heretic
Jesus from the cross: “Tetelestai,” which means, “IT IS FINISHED.”
These words signify that everything about our salvation is complete, finished and that the debt of sin is paid in full with Jesus’ death.
Ezra, with all due respect, you are GROSSLY taking Jesus words out of context. I’m sorry, but if you’re going to take things so badly out of context, I can’t take anything you say seriously.
This is just one example of why there is such a divide between Evangelicals and Mormons.
LikeLike
April 3, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Ezra
Out of context? Are you serious?
The cross is the sole purpose of Christ. Here and here alone comes salvation. I challenge you to prove, by Scripture (of course) that this is not the case.
You need only read through the Epistles (esp. Romans and Galatians) to find Paul making this point repeatedly.
Then, you are right and make my point. LDS and Christianity are totally divided at the point of what the crucifixion is all about.
The greatest heresy is to say, “Yes, we need the atonement of Christ, PLUS…”
There is no such thing as “Christ, Plus…” It is salvation by Christ alone.
Peace (only) in Christ,
Ezra
LikeLike
April 3, 2010 at 8:57 pm
mormon heretic
ezra, from your previous comments on this blog, I can see you are more interested in division and discord than any sort of actual discussion. you may want to read the comments between doug and I from ama’s post abou church growth. while I could explain myself better, I don’t view a discussion with you as fruitful at all, and so I decline now before it becomes a shouting match.
LikeLike
April 5, 2010 at 2:07 am
Doug
Hello Mormon Heretic-I got a good picture what Ezra thought-what do you think Christ meant when he said from the cross ‘It is Finished?’ By the way, I hope everyone had a great Easter-Resurrection Sunday!
LikeLike
April 5, 2010 at 10:48 pm
St. Frances Fan
Ezra wrote: “But, it IS Finished. In Christ there is full atonement of our sins. The price paid, ALL that is needed is to believe.”
and again later Ezra wrote: “The greatest heresy is to say, “Yes, we need the atonement of Christ, PLUS…”
There is no such thing as “Christ, Plus…” It is salvation by Christ alone.”
I have to admit, Ezra, I’m a bit puzzled. First you say that the atonement of the cross of Christ plus belief is necessary. Then you say that ‘Christ plus’ is a great heresy and salvation is by Christ alone.
Which is it?
Also, since you recommend the Pauline Epistles, what does he mean when in Philippians 2:12:
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Specifically, what does he mean when he says, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”?
LikeLike
April 8, 2010 at 4:12 am
Mormon Heretic
John chapter 19 describes Pilate sentencing Jesus to death, his scourging, the Romans gambling for his clothes, etc. Let’s look at the “It is finished” phrase in the context of the chapter.
John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
John 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Now Ezra is making a huge leap in saying that Jesus was referring to “temple or sacrifice or blood atonement.”
First of all, anyone with any sense about Modern Mormonism knows that anyone referencing “blood atonement” is simply trying to start a fight. Second, Ezra’s comment above seems to indicate that Jesus was giving a discourse on Mormon worship practices in the temple. This is simply not supported by the text; he is simply reaching for something out of context with what the Gospel of John chapter 19 is saying.
Since Jesus said “It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost,” it seems pretty obvious to most readers that his sacrifice on the cross is over, laying the foundation for his wonderful resurrection on Easter Sunday. Jesus wasn’t giving a sermon on worship practices on the cross, and for Ezra to twist “it is finished” into a diatribe into everything that is wrong with Mormonism is simply ridiculous.
I suppose that if one is to take Jesus words MOST literally, then there is no need for any gospels after John, because “it is finished.” As such, Paul is the worst of all heretics for polluting the gospel with all these gentile conversions, right?
We need to understand scriptures in context, and I don’t view anything that Ezra said above as anything other than a proof text anti-Mormon attack. Such attacks are not in the spirit of Christ, and bring contention, rather than the love of Christ in our lives. Ezra has engaged in this sort of rhetoric before, and I find his attacks unpleasant, and counterproductive to his goal to bring Mormons to Christ.
While I admire his passion for his cause, he is using vinegar, rather than honey, and I believe he is harming his own cause. Show me the goodness of Christ, rather than dredging up tired, out of date arguments about blood atonement.
Didn’t Christ say, “If ye are not one, ye are not mine”? Ezra brings division, rather than unity to Christ’s gospel. Such attacks like Ezra gives above remind me of the Pharisee that prayed, “Thank God I’m not a sinner like the Mormons” and went away justified. Well, for the record, I am a sinner and need Christ’s atonement–apparently much more than Ezra who seems to think he has a monopoly on the Gospel of Christ.
LikeLike
April 9, 2010 at 12:26 am
ama49
MH,
You bring up some great points as to why I wrote this post. I admire a true Christian when I see one and that’s why I wanted to highlight this. I could really care less if other Christians consider me a Christian or not, but what I do care about is that we unite on common ground and move forward without bickering back and forth wasting energy as Satan would have us do distracting us from helping our friends and neighbors.
LikeLike
April 8, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Cal
That’s very good, Mormon Heretic.
LikeLike
April 9, 2010 at 3:19 am
Doug
Ezra, I don’t know what denomination you belong to, it really doesn’t matter, but I suggest you avoid your broadsides against LDS practices. There are enough examples in the evangelical community, to which I belong to, of people adding “Jesus plus” to their salvation. I have struggled all my life with the desire of wanting to add to what Christ did on the cross for me. I have tried to earn God’s love and wondered if I was doing enough. If you are trying to earn God’s favor and love by doing religious things (even very good things) you have a misunderstanding of what the Bible means when it says we should “work out our salvation”. Max Lucado is fond of saying, “God loves us just the way we are but he refuses to leave us that way-He wants to make us like Jesus.” Our Heavenly Father’s love is not like our love. Human loves increases with performance and decreases with mistakes. God’s love is not like that at all. Though we spurn him, disobey him or reject him-his love for us is not diminished. Our goodness cannot increase it anymore than our stupidity can. His love neverr ceases-He is love. Salvation is a free gift of grace but it is the entry place-the first step, into a life devoted to becoming like Jesus. To have a heart like Jesus-pure, peaceful and humble. 2 Cor. 3:18 says, “Our faces, then, are not covered. We all show the Lord’s glory, and we are being changed to be like him. This change in us brings ever greater glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”
The Gospel principles that I apply to my life, the effort I make in trying to do the right things come from a heart overflowing with gratitude to the Gospel truth that while I was lost in my sin-the Savior died for me, Ezra, Ama49, MH and anyone else who embraces His love. Sometimes following Christ is difficult and painful-He forces us to confront areas in our lives we would just assume leave alone-that’s the “fear and trembling” part of working out our salvation-but it’s worth it.
LikeLike
April 9, 2010 at 4:02 am
Mormon Heretic
Thanks Doug. I think there are many bridges of understanding that Evangelicals and Mormons can build on, rather than blowing up bridges on points of doctrine.
LikeLike
April 9, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Doug
I want to be a bridge builder. I don’t like being attacked myself. I see the faults in my church and I’ll talk about it-but It sure bugs me when those outside of my church are quick to point out things they don’t like to me. MH-I think that’s at least in part where you are coming from. The problem for many of us evangelicals is that we get our information about the Latter-day Saints from books like “The Kingdom of the Cults” and “The God Makers” and so on. Those evangelicals who want to be bridge builders must read such works as “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” and “Another Jesus? What Latter-day Saints Think About Jesus” and the like to get a more complete understanding of Mormon thought and practice. There are two things I notice among many of the LDS who share their thoughts that can get in the way of our bridge building: any opinion they don’t like is immediately branded anti-Mormon and thus unworthy of a response. There are times that might be the right response but should be done infrequently. The second thing is that evangelicals believe in “cheap grace.” Untrue! There’s a good topic for GraceforGrace!
LikeLike
April 11, 2010 at 5:37 pm
ama49
Hi Doug,
I like your attitude and also appreciate you pointing out what you as an evangelical see that the LDS do to cause the divide. Will you tell us more about what you mean about the LDS thinking you believe in “cheap grace”.
LikeLike
April 10, 2010 at 1:13 am
Cal
What you’re saying is so true, Doug. I want to add my contribution–stones, or whatever–to the bridge you guys are building. One way I’m doing that is by praying that more people will find GraceforGrace and be touched by the Spirit as they read its contents.
Let me also add an “amen” to your comment, Doug, that evangelicals do not generally preach “cheap grace”–although I can see how Mormons could think this, looking at it from their point of view.
I imagine Mormons saying with James, “Faith without works is dead”; and evangelicals saying with Paul, “We’re not saved by keeping the law, but by faith.” I think a key to building a bridge here might be to recognize that James is talking about works that are inspired by faith, or empowered by the Holy Spirit; and Paul is talking about works done by our own natural human nature, which really is evil (Luke 11:13).
Do my brothers in the Lord agree?
LikeLike
April 10, 2010 at 6:01 am
St. Frances Fan
Genesis 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Cal, if God made something good, is there really anything man can do to make it evil, to corrupt it entirely? Yes, it’s true that those Jesus was addressing in Luke 11:13 were evil, but was it by their nature as God made them (in other words, God made something that was evil) or by their own choice?
In Romans 3:28, Paul wrote “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
What ‘deeds of the law’ is he talking about?
In Romans 3:1 Paul continued a discussion of the inadequacies of circumcision when he asked, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?” Following that, he shows the advantages of faith before returning to the topic of circumcision by way of contrast to faith in Romans 3:29-30:
“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
Circumcision was the initiation into the law, into being a Jew. If one were circumcised, one became a Jew. But Paul tells us, clarifying his previous statement, that salvation is not only for the Jews (the circumcised) but also for the Gentiles (uncircumcised). Each group is saved by faith and not by circumcision or other works of the law.
LikeLike
April 10, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Cal
St. Francis Fan, you said “If God made something good, is there really anything man can do to make it evil, to corrupt it entirely?”
I’d have to think about this some more, but it seems, as you suggest, that there are natural things that, in one sense, were not made totally corrupt by Adam & Eve’s sin. For example, the way our bodies, even often without any help from the Holy Spirit, recover from disease. Or, the way nature reflects God’s beauty and creativity.
As far as humans go, Jesus said we must be born again to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). As I understand it, nothing except what is in the kingdom of God is without corruption.
I want to say, if you’re Catholic, we love Catholics. Nice to talk to you. . . . let’s see . . . I don’t think we’re supposed to stray too far from Mormons, so I’ll say we love Mormons too, especially the born-again ones!
LikeLike
April 13, 2010 at 6:54 am
St. Frances Fan
Well reasoned, Cal.
I’ve always thought that Tolkien’s (yes, the author of The Lord of the Rings) imagery of Adam and Eve’s original sin, and sin in general, as having ‘twisted’ human nature as being useful. It’s an informal way of thinking about it of course, but I find it helpful. The more and more we twist something, the less and less it resembles its original form, but its underlying substance remains the same.
Jesus did say that we must be born again in John 3:3, but that’s not the end of the conversation with Nicodemus. In the next two verses (John 3:4-5, obviously), Nicodemus asks how that would be possible, and then Jesus tells him how. Make sure you check that part out also.
I am Catholic, and having grown up near Nauvoo, I can never stray too long from Mormons. And loving others, because they are made in the image and likeness of God, is a good thing; it seems to be what God intended us to do all along.
I see there are other replies below, but as it is almost 2, and I will likely wake about 6 and have to be up by 7, and I still have to pray Compline, I’d best reply more fully later.
LikeLike
April 10, 2010 at 6:06 am
St. Frances Fan
Mormon Heretic wrote, “First of all, anyone with any sense about Modern Mormonism knows that anyone referencing “blood atonement” is simply trying to start a fight.”
Not having any sense about Modern Mormonism, MH, can you explain to me what you mean, please?
LikeLike
April 11, 2010 at 5:34 pm
ama49
Hi St Frances Fan,
I don’t know exactly what Mormon Heretic meant, but the way I look at it is throughout the history of the LDS church there have been some controversial things in their doctrine. Blood Atonement being one of them. It wasn’t until I started writing a couple years ago on this blog that I had even heard of Blood Atonement and some of the other things former prophets such as Brigham Young and Joseph Smith had preached and/or done.
I was pretty much raised LDS and hadn’t heard any of these things. You may wonder why we as LDS don’t know about these things or are taught them. My opinion is that those things that were formerly written must not be considered revelation and merely the opinions of some of the early leaders of the church. If you look at other churches’ histories such as the Catholic or Protestant churches, you will see things in their history that they did or taught that are not currently taught now.
In the LDS church, what is primarily taught is the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is faith, repentance, baptism, and enduring to the end. This is the core of what is taught now. Have you ever been to an LDS church?
LikeLike
April 11, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Doug
I agree with Cal, I too appreciate Grace for Grace-great insights with most of what is being shared being done in a very Christ honoring way. Ama49 I threw out the phrase “Cheap Grace” picking that up from some past blogs on Grace for Grace. Some (not all) LDS seem to have the conviction that we evangelical see no (or little) connection between salvation and works. Some seem to think that we teach/preach some vague acceptance of Jesus without any true repentance/change being expected to take place. The issue of faith and works is a complex one. LDS are accused (by some) of believing that their works save them while evangelicals are accused that “all you have to do is pray to Jesus to be saved” and that’s it. The book of James makes it pretty clear (Cal-I loved the way you expressed it) we are saved to do good works. My works do not save me-but they are the evidence of true faith. How do the LDS see it? Same? Different?
LikeLike
April 11, 2010 at 10:48 pm
ama49
Hi Doug,
I think it is good for both LDS and Evangelical Christians to have these types of discussions because as you point out they have, at least on the surface the appearance of opposing views on some doctrines. However, when one really examines what each believe, there are many similarities. It’s just a matter of being open to each other’s point of view.
Regarding your questions on works, grace, and salvation, I do not believe the majority of LDS people feel that they can work their way to salvation, but I have seen some who do. There is a great LDS blogger who wrote on this a couple years ago. Feel free to check it out here: http://thoughtsonlds.blogspot.com/2008/01/thoughts-on-grace-vs-works.html.
What is your take on the scriptures in the Bible that say we are going to be judged after this life according to our works? (see Revelation 20:12-13)
LikeLike
April 12, 2010 at 4:49 am
Mormon Heretic
St Frances Fan,
There are some on the internet who like to look up old LDS teachings and try to make it sound like the LDS still teach some of these doctrines. Blood Atonement is one of these. There are long and short answers to this; I’ll try to keep my answer short so I don’t derail the topic.
As AMA mentioned above, I have never ever heard any church leader teach anything about blood atonement in any church or temple meeting. It is a dead doctrine. However, anti-Mormon sources on the internet love to dredge up sensational quotes from early church leaders on this and other dead issues. There are 2 basic definitions for blood atonement: (1) that Christ’s atonement doesn’t cover certain serious sins such as murder; (2) that for a person to fully repent of some of these serious sins, that person’s blood must be shed (through some form of capital punishment.)
Brigham Young was the main proponent of “blood atonement”, but I don’t believe that anyone in the last 100 years has promoted this doctrine. If you were to ask the average Mormon what blood atonement was, they would probably have no idea. Apparently some Fundamentalists break-offs have resurrected the doctrine, but the main LDS church has let this doctrine die an ignominious death.
Murder isn’t the only sin in this category; inter-racial marriage, and apostasy by a person in high authority were other “serious” sins in the 1850s. Attitudes on race, slavery, and inter-racial marriage permeated all aspects of American culture in the 1800s. Lynchings of Mormon leaders by apostates definitely contributed to Brigham Young’s opinion as to why apostasy was considered a “serious sin.”
Doug, I appreciate you referring to better sources like “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder”, or the current “Gospel Principles” manual. If one wants to understand the issues that are currently taught and understood by the majority members, please reference current official sources, rather than digging up obscure quotes from LDS prophets 150 years ago.
As for the issue of grace vs works, I really don’t understand why Mormons and Evangelicals argue about this issue. It’s like arguing about which side of a coin is most important. Grace and Works are both essential. Without either grace or works, the plan of God is frustrated. I think the argument about which is most important boils don’t to pure semantics, and it’s a silly argument. It’s a completely unnecessary divide.
My works do not save me-but they are the evidence of true faith.
I couldn’t agree more! Mormons are more apt to quote a scripture from the Book of Mormon, but I think it sends a similar message: “we are saved by grace after all we can do.” Any Mormon that thinks he/she can get into Heaven without the grace of Christ is completely misinformed.
LikeLike
April 12, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Doug
I think the grace/works issue is important as our human nature seems to have a bent toward legalism. Thanks for the answers to my questions-you’ve given me food for thought. There’s an old gospel song that has a great line in it, “His grace isn’t cheap but it’s free.” How thankful we can be for a Savior who endured what he did for us.
Regarding Rev. 20:12-13 and the Great White Throne: the names that are in the Book of Life are those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Our lives will be laid bare before the Lord (2 Cor. 5:9-10) and only those works which endure his judgement (1 Cor. 3:10-15) will be evident in heaven. Those who have not trusted Christ will have their works judged-and from our past conversations-you know where that will get you. The judgement of believers is different from unbelievers. The believers works themselves appear to be judged while it is the unbeliever himself who is judged. That is my understanding. What are your thoughts?
LikeLike
April 14, 2010 at 6:14 am
ama49
Hi Doug,
I like Mormon Heretic’s comments on grace and works and agree completly on what he said.
Regarding the final judgement, I like your answer. I think some people may read that and think it is only works that we’re judged on but as both you and Mormon Heretic made mention, it is our works that are made evident in through our faith and the grace of Jesus that will save us. I have never heard an Evangelical say the judgement for believers would be different. From my perspective, I believe that God will judge us all with great mercy and complete fairness therefore, I like your answer that believers and non-believers are judged differently. However, I believe that everyone will have had a chance to hear about the gospel of Jesus before the judgement seat so whatever judgement they recieve is just.
LikeLike
April 12, 2010 at 5:10 pm
Trish
I am have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for 17 years.
I am Christian being a follow of Christ , being a member of the church is just what it is.
Just like a person is a Methodist , or Baptist, Charismatic, or Pentecostal.
All of the churches I mentioned believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior.
They do though have different ways and beliefs that are particular to their Church.
I use to be Charismatic one thing that many Charismatics believe today is that you just pray for something asking in the name of Jesus and it will be done but what they dont
realize is that it is through us that Jesus works.
Just read the book of James in particular.
I do though watch things like the Church channel and other religious stations and some of that belief is slowly changing.
We must get involved if we are to bring about the blessings that God does have instore for his Children.
May our Heavenly Father , the Father of our Spirits and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior bless all of us and keep us.
LDS Woman
LikeLike
April 14, 2010 at 6:17 am
ama49
Hi Trish,
I love your answer and appreciate your comments. You have a great perspective having been active in various Christian faiths. What similarities do you see between the Christian denomonations you’ve been with and why did you decide to join the LDS church?
LikeLike
April 12, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Cal
I agree with what Doug said about judgment at the end of our lives.
I agree with almost everything Trish said except that I’ve been hanging out with charismatic Christians for 27 years, and I’ve never met any that don’t know that Jesus uses us to do his work.
I appreciate that Trish is watching the Church channel–which is not LDS as I understand–and not limiting herself just to the LDS channels.
I have watched the LDS channel at times, altho I’m not LDS.
Jesus is the rock on which we are building our bridges! (Excuse me, but charismatics tend to get excited. LOL.)
LikeLike
April 14, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Tony
Thanks for such an intriguing and insightful post, and what an interesting discussion!
I immediately bookmarked that site. I am *Very* big on respectful interfaith discussion.
As one who has been in the field of apologetics almost since joining in 07, I’ve seen quite a bit of the contention, as well as the honest questioning, of those of different faiths about Mormonism. I have recently decided to look for things we can agree on, for I personally feel that Satan is using much of this religious debate to distract us as fellow believers in God from the real issue, secularism. It is my hope, now, that we can come together in a common cause to fight such an evil and raise our children to have faith in Christ (or whomever one may worship) so that they can have a moral upbringing to protect them against the ills so prevalent in society.
I have recently started a group on Facebook with that ideal in mind, where I seek to celebrate the similarities and differences of our faiths: Interfaith Enlightenment.
Again, thank you for this blog.
LikeLike
April 15, 2010 at 4:37 am
ama49
Hi Tony,
Thanks for stopping by. I agree with your comments. We have much more pressing issues in society than bickering over doctrine. What is the name of your facebook group?
LikeLike
April 22, 2010 at 2:56 am
Cal
I’d like to hang another thought on GraceforGrance for consideration by you wonderful children of God out there.
I’m talking to evangelicals more than Mormons now.
Don’t you think that one of the important principles we’ve been missing is that some teachings in the Bible are important but not essential for salvation (as an evangelical defines “salvation”), and some teachings ARE absolutely essential for salvation?
We never seem to come around to identifying what the non-negotiable doctrines are according to the Bible, and deciding whether the LDS is Christian on the basis of those indispensable doctrines–doctrines that MUST be adhered to or believed in order to enter the kingdom of God as it exists on the earth now.
God has told us plainly in his Word what these are.
Once we identify them and recognize that the LDS does teach them, then we can all help each other grow in our understanding of God without condemning each other all the time.
I believe that looking at the essentials (believe in Jesus, believe he’s the Son of God, follow him, produce good fruit) is a real stepping stone toward progress. So much of the Mormon/evangelical talk misses concrete steps toward progress.
LikeLike
April 22, 2010 at 4:25 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
You bring up some very excellent points. From my experience, doctrine varies amoung the evangelical community. Some say just believe, others say baptism.
This is one huge reason I love the Book of Mormon. It makes it crystal clear what the steps towards salvation are. They are 1. Faith in Jesus 2. Repentance 3. Baptism by immersion 4. The Gift of the Holy Ghost 5. Enduring to the End in faith
If you do these things, you will be saved, according to LDS doctrine. These are all elements of various Christian denomonations, but found in the LDS faith. Here is a quote from Jesus Christ found in 3 Nephi Chapter 11 of the Book of Mormon to illiustrate my points:
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no adisputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of acontention is not of me, but is of the bdevil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things ashould be done away.
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my adoctrine.
32 And this is my adoctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear brecord of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is abaptized, the same shall be bsaved; and they are they who shall cinherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso abelieveth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him bwith fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
LikeLike
April 22, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Cal
Ama, I like the verses in the Book of Mormon that you quoted–on not being contentious, and on the simple instructions for salvation. (I don’t know why “a’s” and “b’s” appear in your text in places they shouldn’t be!?–but that’s beside the point.)
Your point that “these are all elements of various Christian denominations, but found in the LDS faith” is a very revealing point. They can be bridges between us, can’t they?
LikeLike
April 23, 2010 at 4:25 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
I pulled the verses directly from lds.org and the a’s and b’s are links to footnotes…sorry for the confusion.
Amen to your comment about this being a bridge between us! I do not see where there needs to be contention at all. We believe in the same Jesus we just worship a bit differently but I’m sure the Lord is pleased at all of our attempts at worshiping Him as long as it’s with a sincere and honest heart.
LikeLike
April 26, 2010 at 12:59 am
Cal Fullerton
To St. Francis Fan: Sorry I didn’t respond to your comments of April 13–I somehow missed them until now. (You’ve probably disappeared by now.)
To ama: You said, “We [Mormons] believe in the same Jesus we just worship a bit differently but I’m sure the Lord is pleased at all of our attempts at worshiping Him as long as it’s with a sincere and honest heart.
This brings to mind Romans 14 where Paul brings up three “disputable matters” (NIV), and says we should accept each despite differences on these issues. For example, Romans 14:3-4 says, “The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” I love that.
I think eternal marriage is a prime example of a disputable matter. I should not look down on or condemn Mormons for their eternal marriage ceremonies, nor should they condemn me for only being married “until death do us part.”
I’m sure this is what you are saying, ama. The Lord has led you and I (and others) into an important revelation that is threatening to reform the body of Christ. Let the devil weep–we’re making history, brother!
I enjoy talking to you.
LikeLike
April 26, 2010 at 4:48 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
Your scripture goes right along with what I mean and I appreciate you for bringing that up. Why should I judge you for worshipping a bit differently than I worship? We’re all on “the same team” so to speak.
I enjoy talking with you as well. It is refreshing to find common ground with a fellow Christian who doesn’t attack me for what I believe and even better, finds common ground with what I believe.
Why is it do you think that it is hard for Christians and Mormons to find common ground and what do you think would help Christians and Mormons in finding common ground?
LikeLike
May 3, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Cal Fullerton
Hi ama,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
That’s an important question you pose.
I think there are a variety of reasons–more than I can write here. But I’ll mention a few that I’ve discovered.
One that has been mentioned by others on GraceforGrace is the fact that non-Mormon Christians usual judge Mormon Christians by what other non-Mormons say about them. They don’t give you folks a fair chance to defend yourselves.
Based on my continual contact with evangelical or charismatic Christians, I’d also say that they often don’t do an honest investigation of the LDS, or read the Book of Mormon, or visit a Mormon chapel because they are afraid of being deceived. They also may be afraid that a demon will jump on their backs! The solution: trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I’d like to know what you think? Are Mormons often afraid of being deceived as well?
A fourth reason, no doubt, that Mormons and mainstream Christians have troubles finding common ground is the LDS doctrine that one cannot experience the constant companionship of the gift of the Holy Spirit without having had those in authority lay hands on them–those in authority being Mormon officials. When Mormons put forth this doctrine, it makes evangelicals feel condemned, or at least puts a sour taste in their mouths.
Evangels are as sure they have the Spirit living in them as Mormons are that Joseph Smith was a prophet.
The solution: Both sides should realize that Joseph was indeed a prophet but that at times he made mistakes in ascertaining the knowledge of the Lord–as all humans are prone to do.
I’m eager to hear your response and your views. (I know, as you said, that we are on the same team. I feel it in my bones as well as in my spirit!)
LikeLike
May 4, 2010 at 4:10 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
Great points!
I will have to say that Mormons definitely are afraid of being deceived. In fact, the first time I went to an Evangelical church and felt the Spirit there just as I do in LDS services, it shocked me. They were standing up and drums were playing and singing loudly and the Spirit was still there!
I see you read my post I wrote a couple years ago about the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I think the conversation there is very interesting but I do think that it is important for LDS to know that other Christians definitely are blessed with gifts of the Spirit too.
LikeLike
May 4, 2010 at 2:07 am
Doug
Cal,
Thanks for raising some great insights and questions.
I have often thought that Latter-day Saints focus a great deal on the persecutions they endured in their early years.
Much of their suffering came from those who claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ. The stories that have been passed down can inspire but they can also create a persecution complex. While evangelicals have been guilty of treating the LDS people in a very unChristian way at times-not all questions raised regarding LDS teachings are meant as “anti-Mormon.” My point? There is misunderstanding on both sides! That’s why GraceforGrace is such a blessings-we seem to bridge the divide getting past all our baggage. What do you guys think?
LikeLike
May 4, 2010 at 4:14 am
ama49
Hi Doug,
Boy, I think you hit the nail on the head. We hear many stories…story after story, year after year of how “all the churches were wrong” and “Christians persecuted us”. Truth be told, the way the LDS church ended up with polygamy and all that strange stuff there for awhile…that was more wrong than any of the other Christian churches (in my opinion).
If we as LDS just focus on our core belief of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is: faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Spirit…we’ll find a lot of common ground with our fellow Christians. We don’t need to focus on the past…that means the bad the Christians did and also the bad the Mormons did.
One thing from my perspective as LDS is that other Christian churches show things like the “Godmakers” in their schools and churches and tear down the LDS faith. Sure there are some differences, but my experience has been that they show random and obscure things that we don’t even practice now or in some cases never did. Christians need to do the same and focus on the gospel of Jesus rather than condemning LDS or any other faith.
LikeLike
May 5, 2010 at 1:51 am
Doug
I could not agree more Ama49! You have challenged many of my own thoughts! Thank you.
LikeLike
May 5, 2010 at 1:56 am
Cal Fullerton
ama, you made me laugh when you said, “They were standing up and drums were playing and singing loudly and the Spirit was still there!” It’s funny because for so long I’ve been listening to certain charismatic leaders who almost seem to suggest that the Spirit CAN’T show up unless there ARE drums and loud singing!
You said, “I see you read my post I wrote a couple years ago about the Gift of the Holy Ghost.” I don’t recall reading that one, but I will confess that my ears perk up when I see a comment of yours, wherever it is.
Doug, nice to hear from you again. You brought up a good point that I hadn’t thought of before about a disadvantage of the LDS focusing on their past persecution from traditional Christians.
You are a rare person like ama is. Have you guys been able to find many others who share our call from God to do this revolutionary bridge building?
LikeLike
May 5, 2010 at 4:33 am
ama49
Hi Cal,
Probably the most prominent people who have done bridge building are the authors of “How Wide the Divide” Mormon and Evangelical Conversastions. Craig Blomberg and Stephen Robinson are the authors and if you look them up in youtube I’m sure you’ll find some presentations as well. Craig (the evangelical) mentions how some of his fellow Christians think he’s crazy for doing it, but I think and clearly feel led to bridge the gap. Jesus would have us do that.
LikeLike
May 5, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Cal Fullerton
Thanks, ama. I have that book.
LikeLike
July 26, 2010 at 2:25 am
Cal
Hello, again, my evangelical and Mormon friends. (It’s been about 2 and a half months since our last communication here.)
I would love to post on my website—or see on any website for that matter—an essay by a Mormon that describes his or her relationship with Jesus Christ. A fairly short one would be ideal. It would be for the purpose of helping non-Mormon Christians realize that it is possible to be a Mormon and a Christian at the same time.
What I imagine is an essay titled something like “A Mormon Testifies of His Christian Faith.” The writer would make clear that he is a true Mormon—that he believes everything, or practically everything, the LDS teaches. Then he would say something about who he believes Jesus is, what Jesus means to him, how God has changed his life—that sort of thing.
I’m sure Ama could do an excellent one. A Mormon gentlemen from the ward closest to me did write such an essay but decided at the last minute not to put it on my site because I say a few negatives about the LDS on my site.
If anyone feels led to try this idea, please let me know. The devil has set up ex-Mormons to testify slanderous insinuations against the LDS. I think it’s about time God had HIS say!
LikeLike
August 5, 2010 at 4:37 pm
ama49
Hi Cal,
I’d love to write something about that for you. How do you want me to get it to you and when would you like it?
LikeLike
August 5, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Trish
I was asked why did I join the LDS well I did pray and I visited churches in my area.
I went to churches that had the full gospel which means that the church still believes that God still speaks today and that there is healing today and it is for us.
I considered my self a charismatic christian.
Also after leaving the Catholic church at age 16 I went to the Agape christian book store here in Florida with my father and that is where we mainly worshiped for they had a Saturday night meeting.
My family was had many problems my father was a christian but needed counseling and I needed counseling I had ptsd symptoms but they didnt know anything about ptsd it did not become a diagnoses until 1981.
Well in the mean time we lived very meagerly.
Looking back Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were always with me through these pressing trials.
I did notice that a lot of the charismatics began to believe that God will just do it. You didnt need to do anything about anything if you will.
For example I needed desperately to have the floor fixed in the trailer that I lived in I asked a group of men who met to pray for the world every friday evening and the pastor who lead the group said he would have to pray about it and I just had a forboding sense in m spirit that they would never come and they chose not to. I dont hate them but I think we can take any of the gospel truths and just hang on the the ones that seem to work for us . I seemed like the independent charismatic churches believed that God would do what you asked and all you had to do was ask. I think though and this is through personal observation and experience, God will do what you ask if he thinks that is what you need at the moment.
It is not about how much wealth God will bless you with or just waiting and some how things happen I do believe there is a time to wait but if you will read in James the scipture where it states that It is not good for you to say to your brother to be blessed and he is in need. I am just paraphrasing the verse. I have never heard that verse read in any church out side the LDS.
I observed that I heard a lot of hallelujahs and bless God but no works of the Gospel which demonstrate your inner love for God the Father and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ. I asked God to let me find a church where I saw the Gospel being lived not just read. I joined the Church in 1994 and have never looked back if you will.
I am a Spirit filled Christian who does speak in tongues and I do hear the voice of the spirit and have had many blessings and trials since being in the church but also that is part of the journey that we agreed to take I believe in the heavenly counsels of God long ago.
Christians every where have trials and tribulations .
If they dont I wonder where are they living.
We are not suppose to be of the world but we do live in it and we are human beings who make mistakes , need to repent and like Jesus Said if you love me keep my commandments.
Now if Jesus said it I think there is something to it.
I know the Jesus is the Savior of the world and only through his atonement can we come back home to be with him and Heavenly Father.
LikeLike
August 6, 2010 at 3:16 pm
ama49
Hi Trish,
Thank you for sharing your experiences and for your testimony. As you stated, God has always been with you leading you and loving you regardless of the church you were in. I think many LDS believe God doesn’t talk to non-LDS people in the same way he does to them and I think many Christians feel the same way about LDS. As you point out, if we open our hearts to God, he will lead us.
I used to hate the LDS faith myself until I opened my heart and I had a similar experience as you did. I know this is the path God wants me on.
thanks again for sharing. stop by anytime.
LikeLike
August 16, 2010 at 3:58 am
Cal
Trish,
Sorry it took so long for me to get around to reading your testimony. I’ve been intending to do so for some time now.
Your testimony was a blessing to me even though I’m a charismatic and would be happy to tell you that all charismatic churches are not quite so bad as the one you referred to.
I’m just glad that you are serving the Lord and that you’ve found a place where they live the gospel.
One thing I found especially interesting was your comment that you still speak in tongues. I assume this is a blessing to you. Are you encouraging other Mormons to receive this gift?
Thanks again. God’s blessings to you, my sister.
LikeLike
January 2, 2011 at 5:17 am
graceforgrace 2010 Year in Review « Grace for Grace
[…] post I wrote highlighting Christians who believe Mormons are also Christians was very influential for many people this year. As I mention in my purpose of this blog, it is to […]
LikeLike
January 7, 2011 at 5:28 pm
mightytimbo
For more detail on the similarities and differences between Christianity and the Mormon faith check out: http://www.christiananswersonline.com/Mormonism.html
LikeLike
January 13, 2011 at 11:42 pm
ama49
mightytimbo,
That site you reference looks pretty sketchy at best. Especially the part that asks for donations to continue the “ministry” to tear down the LDS faith. Not cool.
LikeLike
January 8, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Cal
I very briefly checked out mightytimbo’s link.
I don’t doubt your sincerity, mightytimbo, but I didn’t have to read much to run into gross exaggerations of LDS imperfections.
This is one reason so many evangelical Christians are deceived about the true character of the Mormon Church.
LikeLike
January 9, 2011 at 8:21 am
Christian Group that Admits LDS are Christians too « Thoughts and Truth from the Impossible Life
[…] I hope that we as LDS Christians can do the same for our fellow Christians by acknowledging the common ground that we all stand on. There are many other issues out there that we need to be united on that we can further the cause of good in the world by working together and not fighting against each other. https://graceforgrace.com/2010/04/02/finally-a-christian-group-that-admits-lds-are-christians-too/ […]
LikeLike
January 12, 2011 at 6:59 pm
Cal
Paul Marcel-Rene, that’s great that you posted my “Evidence” page on your site! You are an LDS Christian? I’d love to hear a little more about your life story than I found at your site. Have you always been a Mormon?
Have a great 2011!
LikeLike