While reading the Millenial Star blog, I noticed an article on the side that caught my attention that was about Joseph and Hyrum Smith and John Taylor taking off their garments before going to Carthage, where Joseph and Hyrum were killed. The reasoning behind them doing it varies, but it is either because they didn’t want to be revealed as “Mormons” to their enemies, or it was too hot in Illinois to wear them and Joseph Smith is quoted as saying he chose not to wear his garments when it was too hot. (http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Removed_garments)
This may be a big shock to some people of the LDS faith because when one goes through the temple they covenant to where the garments as a token of their faithfulness and devotion to the Savior. Furthermore, LDS members are told that the way the garment is worn is an outward expression of an inner commitment to Jesus.
In the same article, there is an account written by B.H. Roberts, of an LDS Elder Robinson, who was actually saved because he removed his garments, which is quoted below:
But unfortunately if Elder Robinson should fall into the hands of enemies, it would be a betrayal of him as to his being a Mormon elder. He therefore retired to a densely wooded section of the country and, stripping off these garments, rolled them up and climbed a tree and tied them securely….But approaching the neighborhood of Kane Creek where the elders were reported to be killed, the railroad passes over a bit of trestle work over a very deep and quite large ravine, and near the middle of this trestle work he observed three men approaching from the other side, guns in hand. There was nothing left to do than to go right on. These men proved to be members of the mountain guard watching for me. On meeting Elder Robinson they questioned him as to where he came from and what his purpose was, and when he told them that he was looking for a job cotton picking they laughed saying, “A damn fine cotton picker you would be. Look at your hands.” And, of course, as Elder Robinson had not engaged in physical labor, his hands were white and soft, not at all characteristic of cotton pickers. He then told them of having been sick for sometime, and that accounted for his pallor in his face and hands and that he was just now beginning to get about and was now strong enough to begin cotton picking. Hence he was in search of that job. They invited him to sit down while they thought things over. No sooner did he do that when one of the three grabbed his shirt by the collar and tore it so as to expose his body, but they found no garments incriminating him as to his Mormonism and finally allowed him to pass.
These accounts raise some questions, which will be outlined below:
If the garments are to be a shield, protection and an outward expression of inner faith, why is it that Joseph Smith and the others removed their garments?
Do you think their lives would have been saved had they worn them?
In Elder Robinson’s case, did he show a lack of faith by removing his garments?
For LDS members today, do you feel that you lack faith if you remove your garments?
Personally, it doesn’t matter to me if someone else chooses not to wear their garments. For me, it is a personal thing between God and myself and no one elses matter.
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November 6, 2009 at 7:14 am
Raine
It’s strange, but I was thinking about this earlier today, after watching some videos on the life and death of Joseph Smith, and coming across the same account of his not wearing the garments and/or telling others not to wear them before leaving for Carthage.
The impression that it got was that he knew he was going to be killed, and assumed that this with him would probably also be killed. By not wearing the garments, they were keeping them from falling into the hands of those who would openly display them and use them to mock the Mormons, like certain anti-Mormons have tried to do even in recent times.
I am not LDS [yet], just doing research and soul-searching at this point, but that’s what made sense to me. I do not know if official church history or teachings say something else though.
I think it’s very easy to question people’s motives, but perhaps in some of those cases God led the person to not wear the garments in order to protect them, while in the case of Joseph & Hyrum Smith, it may have taken their lives in order for people to see that they were telling the truth & willing to die for it. Maybe God had a purpose for Elder Robinson that required he pass the test of not being discovered wearing garments at that time, sort of like the few times in the Bible when God had the righteous deceive the wicked in order to carry out His plans.
Maybe the reason such an emphasis is placed on wearing the garments today is that people are unlikely to find themselves facing such a test, but would be more likely to skip them for comfort or to wear immodest styles if it was considered more of an option than a command.
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November 14, 2009 at 7:41 am
Erik Peter Hansen
Raine, I think you have proven that you are learning truth through The Spirit of God. There are those within the church who don’t quite use the gifts they are given to discern how important God’s will is at every moment, and that He will tell you what to do concerning the law. You seem to have caught on to the truth that these prophets gave their will up and went to their deaths, because they were asked to by The Father. The Lord and The Father can remove our gifts and protection when He wills it and we are simply to follow Them- sometimes unhappily, at least temporarily. You are ready, or soon will be, for the vows and trials, the joy and rewards of the fullness of Christ’s power and gospel. Serve you creator and Father well…
Peace
EPH
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November 6, 2009 at 5:54 pm
John
I think there are times when removing garments is probably justified.
But I can’t accept someone taking off their garments just because they want to wear shorts.
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November 7, 2009 at 2:00 am
ama49
Hi Raine,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I was hoping to hear some thoughtful responses such as yours.
I think it really is a personal matter and the important thing with wearing the garments is that it is personal between God and the individual.
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November 7, 2009 at 2:01 am
ama49
Hi John,
Tell us more about why you can’t accept people taking off garments to wear shorts.
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November 7, 2009 at 3:29 am
Daved
It is a principle where those who have sanctified their garments or are close to having been sanctified, must remove their garments that they might be able to be martyred (if it be the Lords will).
In my humble opinion, Joseph understood that he would be martyred five years before his death. Ten years before that, he came to an understanding that as a Dispensation King, he would either be translated or martyred, as all Dispensation Kings receive one or the other of these fates. When it was clear that the Saints would never sufficiently repent and build Zion, and he had not been personally sanctified, he was going to be martyred.
Remember, the Messiah had his garments removed before His martyrdom. Adam and Noah are two others that we have some records of them removing or passing on their garments. Moses is another Dispensation King, though it is not revealed in the record as to him passing on his garments (or that he even having had any garments). He did however!
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November 7, 2009 at 4:41 am
Ezra
It should soothe consciences to know that there is only one garment that sanctifies: the righteous robe of Jesus Christ.
Those who have been baptized into Christ are clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Those in Revelation are clothed with that righteousness: they have washed their robes and made them white.
Worry not if you are not found in a particular garb; clothe yourself in Christ, see your sins forgiven and transgressions atoned for. Every mortal leaves behind his cloak; only in Christ are we clothed in immortality.
Blessings in his holy name,
Ezra
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November 7, 2009 at 5:01 am
ama49
Daved,
Very interesting comments. I hadn’t ever heard of a Dispensation King before. Please reference where you get that from and explain to those of us (myself) who haven’t heard about this before what it is exactly.
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November 7, 2009 at 5:05 am
ama49
Ezra,
You have very important comments that I hope a lot of the LDS readers read. When an LDS person puts on the garment they should be thinking all of the things you mention in your comments as far as the righteousness, the atonement of Christ, forgiveness, being raised in immortality. The garment is symbolic of the covenant we’ve entered into with Jesus and his atonement and the possibility we have of having our sins washed away and being raised in immortality with Him someday.
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November 7, 2009 at 6:18 am
Soy Yo
I don’t know. When I went through the temple I was taught that I should wear my garments at all times with the few exceptions being Showering, Swimming, and Sex. Sure, it is also said that it is a personal decision when to wear them but everyone knows what you are “supposed” to do.
I look at the example of Elder Robinson a little differently. To me, I see someone who had little faith and actually denied that he was a believer when he removed them. He knew that he was being hunted down so he removed his garments so no one would know that he was LDS.
I don’t see much difference in this and the common hypothetical questions…”If someone held a gun to your head and told you to denounce your belief in Christ or die, what would you do?” You have 2 choices, stay firm in the faith and lose your life for the cause as many have, or compromise your belief and faith by verbally turning you back on God. Or in this case, wear the garments and risk being killed or take them off and, depending on how you look at it, break a covenant you made with God.
Personally, I’m with Ezra who put it so well. The only garment I need is the one Christ offers. Earlier this year I traded in my LDS garments and put on Christ’s and my life has never been the same. The grace he has covered me with has changed my life forever!
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November 7, 2009 at 7:50 am
ama49
Soy Yo,
Very thoughtful comments. You bring up a very valid point with taking off the garment. I can see why you feel that way.
I guess where I’m coming from with him taking off his garments is who am I to judge what the Spirit may have dictacted to him during that time or if he was indeed acting out of fear.
As for you turning in your garments to put on Christ’s grace, I think that is good that you are sincerely coming to Christ. Don’t you think though that if we’re doing it correctly we should be wearing the garment as a reminder to come to Christ and the decision we made to become born again as the Book of Mormon and Bible talk about?
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November 7, 2009 at 7:53 am
Taylor
Ezra and Soy Yo,
It saddens me to hear that for you the two aren’t the same. May you both find the peace and happiness that you deserve.
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November 14, 2009 at 7:49 am
Erik Peter Hansen
I agree… The physical action of obeying a call to wear a protection as a promise and symbol, AND the faith in Christ’s atonement give a fullness of power and determination. Actually it is the other way around- faith in Christ and then do what you can to support that faith. Yes?
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November 7, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Soy Yo
No, I don’t think LDS garments are necessary to remember that I am born again. I have not had any problem remembering His grace every day without them.
I have not found anywhere in the Bible that puts LDS Temple practices and the wearing of special garments a requirement to go to Heaven (Celestial Kingdom for the LDS). So I am not sure how to interpret your “doing it correctly” comment.
As stated, I am not LDS anymore and in my recent studies, I have found that many of the rituals and practices that LDS put so much emphasis on are not part of the requirements for salvation as outlined by Jesus and his Apostles. Come to think of it, I don’t think they are even found in the Book of Mormon, but I will say that I have not turned a page of that book since the day I decided to distance myself from Mormonism.
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November 14, 2009 at 8:00 am
Erik Peter Hansen
I try to remember, also, that God is a living, all powerful Creator and Savior and an actual relative of mine who wants to talk to me- all the time in little miracles and right urges. The scriptures we have are always going to be incomplete and God is ready to include us in more of his gifts and truths. I think that Mormons and protestants, Catholics, etc. all put a limit on truth, as if they have had enough, and can’t get any more. God is eternal as is truth and we are so small. It will take the rest of life to learn it all. Only God, not man can teach us. He does choose good men, though fallible ones, when they have been prepared. Be open to new ideas and love God with humility and meekness and you can’t go wrong.
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November 15, 2009 at 2:08 am
ama49
Hi Erik,
Thanks for stopping by and leaving this very true and inspirational comment.
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November 8, 2009 at 3:33 am
ama49
Hi Soy Yo,
Doing it correctly means one isn’t just putting on the garment out of duty or because someone told them to, but it is a reminder of the covenant we make with the Lord. It is also symbolic of what the Bible scriptures talk about in Ephesians of putting on the armor of God and also a reminder to look forward to when we’ll be lifted up and wear white garments when we’re in the kingdom of God (Rev. 3:4–5).
Those references are taken from the talk I discussed in my post.
The bottom line for you and all of us though is to have joy and as long as you have joy in Christ. If for some reason you didn’t find joy in Christ while you were wearing garments and in the LDS church then we should rejoice you’ve found that joy now. I don’t think Jesus limits his love to just one way of thinking or church.
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November 8, 2009 at 3:39 am
Yankee Saint
Ezra & So Yo;
In my sojourn in the South I met numerous ‘born again’
Christians who used their ‘saved by grace’ mantra to cover all manner of iniquity in which they indulged. Personally, even as a Yankee Protestant I found such superficiality simplistic and vulgar. Nonetheless, it does have a siren’s appeal to those who want to “have their cake and eat it, too.” (Could this be why Evangelicals rank so low in educational achievement according to a recent Pew study?)
Evidently, the fact that the Savior of the World thought enough to honor the Temple in Jerusalem as His Father’s House is insufficient to awaken you to the fact that Tabernacles and Temples are, have been, and always will be necessary to the Divine Plan of Salvation. Even the Jews of the ancient Diaspora understood this and built another temple on an island in the Nile called Elephantine, thus indicating that multiple Temples could simultaneously be the House of the Lord. According to Biblical prophesy, the construction of a future ‘unimportant’ Temple will be the harbinger and catalyst for the return of the Savior, which we must conclude from your shallow and superficial examination and knowledge of sacred history, records and Scriptures, will be done for decorative purposes only.
As to garments, you will find that the Almighty not only felt that his Priesthood bearers be clothed in a particular fashion but He gave clear and specific details as to how those garments were to look and from what materials they were made. If He chooses in these last days to revise the design and make their wearing more private, who are you to challenge and counsel God Almighty?
One cannot be but underwhelmed by your incredible lack of knowledge and understanding of Our Father in Heaven’s Whole Plan to bring to pass the Salvation, Exaltation and Immortality of His obedient children.
Therefore, go thy way in peace and trouble us no more…
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November 8, 2009 at 4:09 am
ama49
Yankee Saint,
I haven’t seen you on the blog before. Welcome to the site.
I’m not sure of your background, but from your comment it appears that you’ve had some encounters with the Evangelical crowd down in the South. From my experience with those not of the LDS faith in th Evangelical community, I’ve seen how ignorant and downright mean they can be sometimes. Perhaps that is why you left the comment you did directed towards the Evangelical friends on this site. However, I do not feel that is justified in tearing down their faith.
I’m positive that Ezra and Soy Yo are sincere seekers of Jesus Christ and they have received answers to prayers just as you have. I’ve learned from the comments they’ve shared and feel a brotherly connection with them as fellow followers of Jesus Christ.
I would encourage you to try to put yourself in their shoes before leaving comments. To them, Joseph Smith isn’t a prophet and the Bible is the only word of God. What they believe is in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we should build on the common ground that we all share which is Jesus Christ.
Sure, we as LDS practice our religion a bit differently than they do, but are they wrong and do we have a monopoly on truth? I would say we don’t. In fact, as the Book of Mormon prophet King Benjamin says, we’re all beggars in the sight of God and rely on Him daily. Therefore, your comment on them lacking knowledge isn’t justified either because all of us lack knowledge in comparison with God. We should be humble and grateful God even answers our prayers because he doesn’t have to.
I encourage you to embrace your fellow Christian brothers of other denomonations and rejoice in the love they’ve found, which is the same love we enjoy as followers of Jesus Christ. Let’s not critisize others for the way they chose to excersize their faith.
As stated in my purpose on this site, Joseph Smith once said he’d be willing to die for a Catholic, Protestant, or any other person because we’re all brothers and sisters and children of God. I encourage you to remember this when posting future comments on this site.
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November 8, 2009 at 5:03 am
Soy Yo
Yankee,
I can confidently say that any Christian that uses Christ’s grace as a reason and justification to sin has probably not really experienced it and they should take a deeper look at their personal conversion to Christ. Now, if you consider drinking tea, coffee, or other things as part of this “iniquity” because they do not follow the LDS Word of Wisdom, then I would like to direct your attention to Romans 14 and 1 Cor 10: 23-33.
In reference to your comments about the temple, everything in them pointed to the coming of Christ and what he would do for the world. If you study the different stages of Old Testament temple worship and then compare it to the days leading up to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, you will see that in his last days, Christ personally went through every part of the temple worship process. He was the last and perfect sacrifice, making temples worship obsolete. Add that to the many times that Jesus himself, as well as his apostles, explained that WE are the temple of God and that he no longer dwells in temples built by human hands and you have a very different version of the modern need for temple worship to gain salvation.
You also talk about garments for Priesthood bearers who were men. What about LDS women who also wear garments? According to LDS doctrine they do not technically hold the priesthood so why are they required to wear them?
Ama49, thank you for your kind words. This has always been a site that has tried to encourage respectful discussion about religious beliefs and I appreciate that. You are quick to accept and slow to judge. I too do not feel that Yankee’s disparaging comments are warranted but he is unfortunately not the first that has said such things and he won’t be the last. I have developed a thick skin when it comes to statement like his.
Grace and Peace to all!
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November 8, 2009 at 5:44 am
Yankee Saint
Ama49,
Regretably, I spoke from experience with many of those Evangelicals that I encountered in the deep South. I submit to you that it is not I, but their own brethren who by their ‘works’ (another operative buzz word among the E’s), that belittle and besmirch their Faith.
If you would like to see how your love, tolerance and concern for them is returned, I suggest that you log on to their some of their websites and see what they say about the Latter-day Saints. Further, may I bring to your recollection that it was ministers and believers of very similar religious persuasion that organized and participated in the persecutions of the early Saints. In the last days it will be some, perhaps many of these same people who will ‘war against the Saints’. Their proclaimed goal is the total destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is what they have told me and I take them at their word
The only reason that these folks could have for lingering on an LDS site is the hope that they might succeed in planting seeds of doubt in someone else’s mind. Otherwise, they would be turning their full attention to their new brethren, their blogs, activities etc., rejoicing in the comraderie of their fellow believers. I realize that they do not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. I repeat my question, why then are they here? If we are so wrong then why are they wasting their time?
You are right, I haven’t commented before and this will likely be my last, but for your information, I was baptized (as an infant) Roman Catholic, educated for some time in parochial schools, also in a Jewish school where I participated in Torah studies, left Catholicism on my own volition when I was 10, attended a Lutheran church but found it to be too close to Catholicism, and settled on Congregationalism. I was intending to attend Andover-Newton Theological Seminary to become a Congregationalist minister when after more New Testament study realized the striking parallels between the early Church of Jesus Christ and the L.D.S. Church. I investigated and after a few months study had my prayers answered and I was baptized. I have since spent two-thirds of my life as a Latter-day Saint. I have no regrets.
Further, it might interest you to know that among my extended family I have Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Evangelicals, Russian Orthodox, and the so-called “New Agers”. Thus far, we have all gotten along fairly well. We know where each other stand and we leave it at that.
I have studied Book of Mormon with the late Hugh Nibley, whose research and books would be most enlightening to these two Christians. The apostasy is similar to coming upon the remnants of an ancient shipwreck located in strong currents in the depths of the sea. What remains of the once great vessel are scattered
about and it is only with the greatest study can one begin to reconstruct what this ship looked like. This means that the truth seeker has to move far beyond simplistic answers.
There is an enormous amount of evidence in bits and pieces of what the early Church was like, what was taught in it, and what some of its beliefs and practices. Of course, as with all wrecks, there are things missing. Therefore, it behooves anyone who claims to be seeking the truth to
educate themselves on if there are genuine ancient origins to Latter-day Saints beliefs and practices. When this is done objectively, one easily stands in awe of what a Vermont farmboy with far less education that any of your readers got right. But none of this should be seen as “proof” that the Church is true. Proving truth empirically is not the affirmation God wants you to have. He wants you to gain your witness from the Holy Spirit. That is the only unimpeachable Witness that counts.
I confess that I do not suffer fools lightly nor do I respond well to condescending remarks made by people who betrayed their own Faith without sufficiently examining it. Obviously, I speak my own mind; a trait for which we New Englanders are known.
You are correct that we don’t have a monopoly on truth, but we do have more of it than anyone else. When we teach the Gospel to others we build on the foundaton of truth that they have. Your citation of King Benjamin is not germane to this discussion in that he was speaking of charity to the poor. I happily and sincerely embrace all Christians who do not have as their goal the destruction of my Faith and Church.
Lastly, I am very well aware of the Prophet Joseph’s comment but I think that you should well remember that on that June 27th afternoon in 1844 the mob of men with the blacked faces that surrounded the Carthage Jail had many men who believe just as these two men do.
With all the warm & fuzzy “Kum By Yahs” aside, when the time comes, (and it will), I know which side I am on, do you?
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November 8, 2009 at 6:04 am
Yankee Saint
Soy Yo;
Heard all this before, remain unimpressed. Almighty God, the Creator of the Universe and his Holy Son, the Saviour of all humankind, can, at Their will and pleasure command and revoke any law, requirement, etc. that They wish. They can institute new ordinances or change existing ones. They can also speak to all Humankind whenever they feel like it. Nor are they are bound to eternal silence by their previous messages. Why? Because They are Who They are. They do not need not any mortal’s approval nor would they feel bound by their preconceptions.
“Credo ut intelligam et intelligo ut credam”
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November 8, 2009 at 6:57 am
Soy Yo
Yankee, you may have heard it all before but that is not a valid response to question(s).
I personally do my best to not put limits on God but I do think that he is consistent in what he teaches. I believe in a God that is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I also believe that any “new revelation” should be adequately tested and compared to what Christ taught. If it does not stand against this comparison, then I think there is a problem. Evangelicals believe in personal revelation and we believe that God speaks to us today. That revelation however must be in-line with Biblical truths. If it cannot withstand Biblical scrutiny then you have to question the source. Was it God, our flesh or Satan talking?
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November 8, 2009 at 10:03 pm
ama49
Yankee Saint,
Thanks for clarifying your background and your experience. You very well may be right about the Evangelicals and their intentions to tear down faith, and if that is their intent then it is all the more reason for us to pray for them and try to love as Jesus loved. Even if they are our enemies we are commanded to forgive and pray for them.
As for those Evangelicals who visit the site, perhaps you’re right about their intention. I can’t really judge their intentions, but what I can do is try to take the best from what they say and as long as it isn’t demeaning, I’m happy to do so.
For example, as we see on this post, the Evangelicals who commented shared that they don’t feel a need for garments. That is fine. Their views on that will be different than those of an LDS visitor. However, where is the common ground? It is in Jesus Christ. Those LDS visitors will then remember the words of the covenants and commitments we made in the temple to Jesus Christ and we’ll rejoice that we have that blessing. Even if we don’t practice our faith in exactly the same way, both the Evangelical and Mormon will come together in rejoicing in Jesus Christ and I’m sure that’s what He would want us to do.
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November 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm
ama49
Soy yo,
By the way, thanks for the reference to the Romans 14. This is off topic from the original post, but there are many great key points in this chapter.
1. Regard the day unto the Lord including what we eat.
This is something I may write about in a future post. Regarding the day unto the Lord to me means that everything we do, we should be doing unto God. As Paul says, what we eat and also what we do. I would add our conversations and thoughts (as Jesus taught). If we’re eating and drinking unto the Lord, make sure we’re eating and drinking what and how the Lord would have us do. Our thoughts should be positive as the Lord’s. Our conversations should be uplifting, etc.
2. Don’t judge others for what they eat and do
A very important reminder that it isn’t up to us to judge others regardless of their eating habits or their actions. Sometimes this can be very difficult, but it is what Jesus commanded and if we’re true Christians we’ll strive not to have bitter feelings towards those who offend us.
2. This chapter actually supports the Word of Wisdom almost word for word.
See verse 21:
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.”
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November 9, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Soy Yo
Ama49
I mentioned Romans 14 because it supports both sides of the issue regarding what we should eat or drink.
Verse 2-3 says:
One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
13-14,17:
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean…For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Since I left the LDS church, I have been constantly judged because I now choose to drink coffee, tea, and beer on occasion. Somehow this makes me so bad and evil in the eyes of members I know and even my family. They have a hard time grasping the fact that I am no longer bound by their rules and standards. I try to also keep in mind the parts of the chapter that speak about causing others to stumble by why I choose to eat or drink but I think the underlining message of the chapter is in verse 22
22 – So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
It is up to each of us to decide what is personally permissible and what is not. If we involve God in that process then no one can argue against the conclusion.
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November 10, 2009 at 12:58 am
ama49
Soy Yo,
If when you’re drinking and eating, etc. you’re doing it unto the Lord and if you feel good about it then you’re right, it is between you and the Lord.
Personally, I feel that if my body is a temple and if I’m drinking and eating, etc. unto the Lord, the Word of Wisdom is a great way to do that. But you’re right, it is between me and God. I have family members who aren’t Mormon who drink coffee, beer, and all of that. Do I judge them? No! There are too many other things in life to live for than condemning others for their eating habits.
No one ever has the right to judge and if they do they’re in the wrong. Remember not to judge them for judging you as well though and pray for patience! : )
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November 16, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Ann
My comment is about “grasping the fact I am no longer bound by their rules and standards.” I know how this feels because I was at one time excommunicated. I am a convert – twice, I might say. I kept hope in not being completely worthless because I knew I lived many years without The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints previous to my first baptism. I also – I suppose – had a bottomline, foundational faith in Jesus Christ who lives and gives breath the world over. When I was excommunicated, I was relieved, Soy Yo reminds me. To me, tho, I knew I was simply living the degree of righteousness I could tolerate at the time, these degrees I know are true I’d learned in LDS doctrine. I had my run-ins with my husband at the time who demanded – in my earlier stages of apostasy (loosely worded, from an outward appearance) – my temple recommend be taken back by our branch president. Even he (the branch president) tried convincing my husband I was still in a “stage” where temple attendance would help me, but — I just got a current temple recommend back after some ten years. I see the small print on it: “When properly signed and endorsed, this certifies the person is in good standing and may enter the house of the Lord. This recommend… remains the property of the Church… and must be surrendered on demand.” After a while, I became inactive and didnt wear my temple garments anyway, years before I got to more formal disciplinary process. I since ponder in myself somewhat the “hedge” Satan asks if God has set around Job, and I felt somewhat this concept in my temple garments. I have yet to feel it since being restored to “the temple” as I put it, but I am not looking to express myself outside the bounds at this time, as I did before. And for what reason? I may ask, did I step outside the bounds at all? My testimony did not waver. I didnt look at an outward appearance, as my life was in too much crisis at the time, I had to live and breathe. I know I felt relieved, as Soy Yo says, in living a different degree. For all intents and purposes, I would say it was looked upon as the lowest degree of glory, the telestial (if not hell to please Satan), but I cannot say I discounted the Atonement. I actually can say I started living chastely for the first time since puberty, because “the lightbulb went off” and this is how I say I started over again tho crumbling all the props. My first time around (baptized) I was single but married my lover soon after (the man who became my husband – if thats not a brilliant comment, nothing is) and he was baptized, also, a few months before we were married. I equate this history, now, to “covering my sins with the priesthood” in other words, we were married civilly and eventually we were sealed in the temple together, but I -personally- felt a “higher” degree of personal hunger and thirst for righteousness.. I feel I simply went back to my original testimony of The Church when I became excommunicated. I started over, plain and simple. I questioned in myself the “seed of doubt” Yankee Saint brings up. Can doubt be essentially considered a seed? The risk involved is something Satan warned ME about, but –I guess I am comforted in the understanding I have of Heavenly Father’s flesh and bones which live Eternally! But anyway, intellectualizing aside- tho I admire the talents of expression and teaching I witness here in this blog- for me I almost get myself to wondering why I am or ever was blessed with a testimony! Married, I commit adultery and find my entire life is a lie and begin (*again) my original quest – which testimony I was blessed with at age 15 before there was any need for anyone to consider I had any problems of this sort! I hope some readers smarter than I am can figure this out, I’m still trying to relate and further understand! The original question of this blog topic: Do Latter-day Saints lack faith if they dont wear their authorized garments? OK, I *could have understood my life was a lie on the inside before I got to the extremes I did, and why didnt I? Why doesnt anyone? Why do we even need to be here? It also amazes me, even in the context of having “common ground” a perfect Being isnt even understood in anyway similarly to other groups, but I guess this is the degrees of glory I mercifully learned in teh LDS Church. Its excusable when we talk about human behavior, but I guess indeed it is up to Our Common Ground to witness. How Anonymously Common, yet I know there is such a Witness! I’m recently learning more about the difference between Faith and Hope. I dont have faith in some aspect I’ve never been exposed to, I think this is a good starter. For instance, I wasnt married to Christ, tho I say I operated within His bounds until the point of adultery and excommunication. All these are brought up by the Lord in speaking of His Church, but just on my human level, I think it can be seen I have enough figuring out just the outward appearances and all of Christ’s representatives etc! As for women not having the priesthood, and yet wearing temple garments, it is my belief priesthood is shared in a (more) fully-operative form in Exaltation. Men’s acts of God are probationary, here. They just get a different form of acting, or we can blame a woman for getting pregnant. Jesus’ mother already had that problem. My faith is operative in Priesthood, God’s true power, which God displays to me Himself. As a woman, it is one less thing I need to worry about from an outward point-of-view, but I believe in it as part of Exaltation, male-and-female. It may always be so, in the Eternities, as it is here now, but Faith is the question. Hope, I am learning, is more directed towards myself. I can have faith in as much of Jesus Christ, my Savior, as I am allowed to “know.” Do I think it has any meaning for me, personally? Then I have hope. This can be extended towards what Charity is, the acts of salvation Christ gives to even those without Hope or even Faith. Which is only important to the one who actually has Charity, after all! Garments. I admit, as the years droned on and I awaited restoration after rebaptism, I ordered new garments. I mentioned it to my branch president (yes, we are still a branch) in anticipation for The Day which did for all intents and purposes arrive. He didnt object. Distribution didnt object. There were some technical issues along the way, I was rebaptized before Salt Lake even knew I was excommunicated etc but along my process, I didnt worry about it – as Soy Yo reminds me – grasping the fact I am no longer bound … I also believe faith can change the past and the future, the order is perceived humanly, such as temple ordinances for the dead, now, being performed “in order.” I feel it is for the comfort and understanding of the imperfect minds, mine well-included. I wasnt unduly humiliated. I am divorced! My ex-husband didnt even know I was excommunicated, or rebaptized. Here is where I admit I got to a point where I received my temple garment packages and I did not wear them without Authorization. I got to the point where I de-marked some of them, and put them back on my skin. I admit I suddenly became self-conscious I was without garments – in an outward appearance. I havent publicly mentioned wearing de-marked garments before, I was never exposed to my underwear so intensely, to that point. Within months, I was restored, and was present during the restoration blessing wearing unmarked garments. I understood and understand temple garments without markings to be nothing but “filthy rags.” I changed in to “real” garments at earliest “convenience.” Having so mentioned, I wonder if this is something else controversial! Of course it is! This is underwear, and it is sacred! (By the way, the expense question of the Mormon underwear is answered in what I was told by LDS Distribution that the actual cost of each garment is ten times what it is sold for, so think of it that way. Its not as expensive as we think it is. If I want to special order anything, it will cost ten times what the standard production charges.) I THINK, having reflected over all this, that garments do not mean anything without faith. Do Latter-day Saints lack faith if the garment is removed? Do I lack faith if I’m asked to remove it as an object or as an ordinance? If I’m excommunicated, what does it mean? I can compare it to having the choice to receive a body or playing it safe and never risking making a mistake. No one has perfect faith at any time, in any way, in any means. Hows that for what does anything human and temporal mean? And what about after I am resurrected? and go thru the Millennium, and what is the purpose of Satan being loosed one more time before “the end,” after I am already resurrected and everyone else is, too, for that matter? Because free Agency remains Eternal. God himself right now can make a mistake if He wants to, and why doesnt He?
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November 17, 2009 at 4:57 am
Soy Yo
Ann, to be honest, I had a hard time following all of that. That is probably due to a lack of sleep but I am glad that you are happy now.
I do want to say one thing. You said, “Because free Agency remains Eternal. God himself right now can make a mistake if He wants to, and why doesnt He?”
It is statements, beliefs and theology like this that give non-LDS reason to claim that Mormons are certainly not Christians. The very nature of God is the polar opposite of Sin. He is Holy, Pure and is incapable of sin. Only in LDS theology is there even room to entertain such thought about God and it really diminishes who He is. Statements like that are considered total heresy in the Christian community. God does not and cannot make mistakes.
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