Book of Mormon Geography: Which Theory do you Believe?

This is one of my favorite topics. I hadn’t heard about the sunken Caribbean one before. That looks interesting.

I know Malay is hard for most people to fathom, but I think that’s the most intriguing one to me.

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Theodore, I get it, you like a North American model. Right.

Now – could you can the macho posturing about how everyone who doesn’t agree with you is somehow either blinded or lacking in faith? I’ve been blogging long enough to know hyperbole when I see it, and your posts frankly reek of it.

I don’t have any particular preference about geography models for the Book of Mormon. As far as I’m concerned, they’re all neat. And I think certain people could stand to tone down the holy war on this issue just a notch (even if they have a line of DVDs they have to sell).

We don’t have authoritative designation of the hill outside Joseph’s home as being Cumorah. The only reference to the hill as such comes from its usage in early Church history – probably from Oliver Cowdery or WW Phelps.

Neither does the Book of Mormon state that the gold plates were buried there. In fact, the one time the hill and the plates are mentioned, it is made explicit that they weren’t buried there at that time (Morm 6:6). Moroni did not bury the plates until nearly 36 years of wandering later.

Theodore, that’s plenty of time to transport a 60 pound parcel from Mesoamerica to upstate New York (even by foot), if that’s what people want to believe.

It’s also possible that Moroni simply wandered around the Great Lakes region for 36 years and then stopped by upstate New York to drop the plates, if that’s how you roll.

Seriously, I don’t care. But your rhetoric is waay over the top on this. You act like anyone who doesn’t share your pet theory is some variety of either idiot, or spiritually impaired.

I don’t appreciate it.

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Yeah, I figured you’d think I was talking about you with the DVD thing the moment I hit “send.”

I wasn’t, for the record. Probably should have left it off.

I also think you’re trying to make me claim too much with Morm 6:6. I worded it pretty carefully. See if I’m making the claims you say I’m making.

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Yes, that is true. Following Joseph’s meeting with Moroni one year before Joseph received the plates, Lucy recalls her son as saying, “It was the angel of the Lord. As I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord.” So, according to his mother, Joseph knew the ancient name of the hill one year before he received the plates. He could only have known that from Moroni. By itself this testimony could be subject to question. However, it is consistent with Oliver Cowdery’s testimony and David Whitmer’s testimony, so we have three witnesses that it was Moroni who told Joseph the hill in Palmyra was Cumorah. That Lucy recalled this conversation many years after the fact does not diminish its validity. It is common that one’s long term memory is clearer with age. I now recall things in great detail that I hadn’t thought about for years. My short term memory is another issue, of which I’d rather not discuss.

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If it were Lucy’s testimony alone I might agree with you. However, Oliver Cowdery made the following statement in January of 1831, less than one year after the Book of Mormon, which he mostly wrote, was published.

“This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County” (HC 1:184).

So it was clear to Oliver Cowdery that Moroni had told Joseph Smith that the hill in Palmyra was called Cumorah. The Book of Mormon does not say where Moroni buried the gold plates so the only way the early saints could have known the hill by that name was because Joseph Smith told them. The only way Joseph Smith could have known was if Moroni had told him. There is no evidence for the unfounded supposition that Joseph Smith misunderstood Mormon 6:6 to mean that Moroni also buried the Book of Mormon plates in Cumorah.

“…therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” (Mormon 6:6)

A high-school seminary student could not misunderstand this simple statement and to suggest that the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated the book, and Oliver Cowdery, who wrote it, somehow both misinterpreted this passage is an insult to both of their intelligences.

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And the fact that there is no viable evidence nor reasonable alternative explanation as to why Joseph and Oliver and their associates referred to the hill in Palmyra as Cumorah, other than Moroni told them it was.

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But Oliver didn’t say that he learned it from Mormon in the Book of Mormon. He said that the angel Moroni called the hill Cumorah. Oliver, Second Elder of the Church, who was with Joseph in the translation and whenever keys of the priesthood were transmitted from angels, certainly was in a position to know. A misreading of Mormon 6:6 is an unsupported assertion that someone made up out of whole cloth to support the Mesoamerica Theory. There is no evidence for it. If you can find any evidence to support this assertion please let me know.

As for Joseph Smith, his testimony of Cumorah is canonized in the Doctrine and Covenants.

D&C 128:20
“And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets–the book TO BE REVEALED.” (emphasis added)

This scripture reinforces the other evidence that Joseph Smith knew that Cumorah was the name of the hill before the Book of Mormon was translated.

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The idea that there are two hill Cumorah’s is highly speculative as there is no evidence in support of it.

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I think that the “Two Cumorah” theory is the Achilles’ Heel of both the Malay theory and the Mesoamerica theory.

The more evidence there is for a theory the less speculation there is.

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Thanks AMA, I’ll have to check it out.

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If you want to read about earthquates & winds & tsunamis and all sorts of east winds to be afraid of …scary weather & natural disasters… the Malay Peninsula is right in the middle of it. And it also was anciently.

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The Pacific fault line runs right next to the Malay Peninsula. they have had Enormous volcanic explosions, even in historical times. Earthquakes, tsunamis, destructive east winds are quite common along that fault line. The comparable events in Central America are much less common and far less destructive. At the time of Christ a Mexican author in Central America wrote of the destruction caused by an earthquake and it was so mild that no people were killed.

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In the scriptures it says that Book of Mormon people were to go to an “uninhabited quarter.” And they were to be kept from the knowledge of other nations. We Mormons have been told to believe for many decades that America was uninhabited when the Jaredites first came and they and the Nephites were to be kept from the knowledge of other nations.

Scientific evidence has indicated that America was settled thousands of years (at least 20 to 30,000) before Book of Mormon times. Now that anthropological evidence clearly indicates that the Americas were settled way prior to Book of Mormon times, and few, if any, of the Native Americans have DNA which matches the DNA of the Middle East, Now we are expected to believe that they intermarried with the numerous inhabitants so their DNA has become virually nonexistant.

Interesting that there has been almost a complete reversal in our beliefs…. but this doesn’t seem to be upsetting to many of our experts. The Malay Hypothesis is consistent with the scriptures. It proposes that the Book of Mormon people did go to an “uninhabited quarter of the Pacific.” Then, as Polynesians, they were kept from the knowledge of all others for hundreds and hundreds of years. Only a few small groups of the Polynesians came on to America so their DNA was diluted by many thousands of Native American people.

The Malay Hypothessis is consistent both with scientific evidence and Book of Mormon accounts.

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I’m Indonesia, and my name is soni, i have read about Prom prof santos website Profesor Santos http://atlan.org/atau m
andhttp://atlan.org/articles/checklist/#checklis…

Indonesia is the atlantis and atlantis is the origin aryan place is that right?

guys are you talking about Melayu ( mala) is the aryan people (shame mode on) ,we build the bigest building in 800 AD ,Borobudur one of the seven magnificent of the world.Indonesia is now is the world no 1 , Islam country , we already have the bigest empire Shrivijaya ( Hindu) .
but i’m tann, but not proud ,
we fell we are the same with you that was the Human race , why you guys so crazy about aryan peoples ???
FB : indiglo@email.com

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Zion, August 14, 2010

Book of Mormon Geography
By
Miguel Angel Tinoco Rodriguez

Occam’s Razor theorem as understood by the logic of the scholars or the scientific community suggests to the mid that where all things are weighed equally, in order to differentiate truth from error or deviation, one must not go beyond the mark or to explain redundantly and without necessity the truth of any given thing. And also that when we are confronted with diverse or pluralistic opinions, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one.

Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor) is the principle that “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity” (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem). The popular interpretation of this principle is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. However, this is often confused, as the ‘simple’ “is really referring to the theory with the fewest new assumptions.”

As far as pinpointing with exactitude the geographical locations of the book of Mormon, the prophets have time and aging told us the mind of God concerning it; whoever, scientist and scholars time and again go beyond the mark to make manifest their deep ignorance.

Therefore, I do not believe any of these purported and proposed theories concerning the geography of the book of Mormon as explained, for they are only that, theories that do not conform to written facts. These theorems are all too limited in scope and too broad in ambiguity which only lead to multiplicity uncertainties or UGATH darkness in the minds of people.

In a little over five hundred year we have filled and inhabited nearly the whole continent of America. More than twice our cultural life span the Jaredites, the Nephites and the Laminates nations inhabited and dominated these lands. Here they worked and walked therein, therefore, they knew at least as much if not more than what we now know about these territories. People these days are trying to make them look ignorant as if they knew not where precise cardinal points of the world were.
I understand about the ignorance or scriptural analphabetism of the peoples of the world, but why is it too hard for a great many of the people of this Church of Jesus Christ and their cat minded scholars to take the Lord’s words as given by his mouth the prophets? It is not written in the scriptures that the Lord delight in simplicity and plainness? And is it not written also that the weak things of the world will come forth to confound and to dethrone the mighty and strong ones? That the weak and unlearned would overpower the wise and leaned?

With an eye single to the Glory of God, I will tell you what you have not previously considered about the book or Mormon words. A good heart and a willing mind of a fourteen year old Aaronic priesthood teacher can decipher this locations and geography of the Book of Mormon better than the leading scientists and scholars and their cat minded followers amongst us. For instance, if the prophets of today have told us that Lehi and his party when they were brought here by the hand of Lord, that they originally landed in the paced called Chile, so it is. Take it or leave it. Who are we to contend against the wisdom of God? Even the foolishness of the Lord is wiser and his weak things stronger than men

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:23 – 25)

The English language must be the most direct language of earth to communicate a thought or idea, but it is also the most phonetically imperfect and misleading language of them all. But if you must know, for starters if reformed or confounded languages, the word CHILE transliterated or correctly arranged reads LECHI; or LECHEE as with a strong Latin or Hebrew pronunciation. One just has to put the syllables in the right location until it sounds right. Now, Chile is a very long and narrow country from south to North like a piece of cheese. Lehi did not have to Land in the midst or southernmost par of it. Even nowadays, a bordering location between Chile and Peru is a good enough locality as a landing port for Lehi and his party to substantiate the truth as spoken by the prophets of Today. And it also serves well as a landing place for a big ark. And that place today, if I were to land in it as Lehi did, I or my people would call it the place of the Arc. And today in that very spot, there is a place so called, even ARICA or the place of landing of the Ark or Arca. Go ahead, Google or map it and as it was yesterday, it is today and it will still be there tomorrow and forever.

Now the Lord may confound our languages due to our iniquity to keep us dumb, blind and mute, but he is not a deceiver. If the Old world geographies have kept their old names during all these millennia despite of language barriers, so does the new world places. The only difference is that we ARE SO DULL OF HEARING AND BLIND THAT WE DO NOT RECOGINZE THE WRITTEN WORD OR THE SPOKEN LANGUAGE.

If we truly read the scriptures as intended; and we try to remember the names of peoples and places therein regardless of how old and boring they are, perhaps we can learn something new. What use there would be for temples without names? And also, if we learn some basic Egyptian and Hebrew terminology; or at the very least; if we attempt to read backwards even English or Latin or Spanish as in Hebrew; plus a adding a little Ladino or a little pre-Columbian pronunciation, anyone can Identify pretty much any place in the book of Mormon in today’s world. Some examples are these:

Please visualize the locality and meaning of the word TIMNA where Joshua domiciled himself when he divided the promise land among the tribes of Israel; or the nearby place called GOLAN, or the low lands as the port of ELAT or ELIAT. These are commonly known places in the Holy land and in the scriptures. If I were to move away from there to a distant and faraway land in order to remember my roots I would use the same names or terminology in my new locality perhaps with a little word or syllable reformation. Even if my last name is ELIAB I would surname one of my children BAILE or LEIBA or IBAEL, LEBAI or if my Hebrew roots are strong I would even use the Y instead of the I as in the name BAILEY. Or if my name anciently was PETER Bar Jonah, I would be called today PEDRO or PETER BARAHONA. Or If I were to be a descendant of the inglorious sons of the High Priest Eli. OPHNI, PHINEAS, ICHABED that lived during the times of Samuel the prophet. Or even the surname CAIPHAS the killer High priest that Lived in the times of Samuel the prophet and during the crucifixion of Christ, I would look at someone that is surnamed as of OPHNI like PINO, FINNO/ FOR PHINEAS, someone surnamed as ESPINA. PINAES or FINESS or ZENIFF/ For ICHABED BEDOICHA or BEDOYA, or even FAICAS instead of CAIFAS

Now the word MANTI of the hill named in the book of Mormon, this is no other than TIMNA or TIMNAT as in the Bible. Do you see where the reformation of language words lead? Now the word GOLAN is no other than LOGAN or OGLAND, the place where the giants lived. And ELAT, in the low lands is no other than the port of TELAH. In North America, even Logan Utah, is named after the Jerusalem place Golan by some Ephratas living nearby. Even the word you already know UTAH has a self evident meaning or interpretation. As you know it means TOP of the mountains. Or HAT as in HATU or the word UTAH backwards. This is so as to say or suggest to the mind the place the HAT OF THE GIANT HILLS; or the hills with a white or snowy hat. All interpretations lead to the top. To learn these things is fun and very constructive when the spirit of the Lord takes the lead over the carnal mind, ear, eyes, mouth and flesh.

Most of these lands in America were first discovered, conquered and colonized by JEWS or undisclosed Israelites. They were the agents of the gentile nations that were expelled or sent here from their captivity to work for them. And the Lord that inspired them to navigate also gave them aid. They were the most professional and literate of men in those; and also in our days. And they were the ones that named pretty much every city and or new settlement in America. The Lord our God brought them here and it was his duty and responsibility to also inspire them to name the places anew also for his own purpose. Some places even kept redundantly both their new and primitive names.

I, for instance was born in the city of TEGUCIGALPA in Honduras, Central America. Honduras is another name that signified both Bottomless pit and Homes of wisdom without limits. The closest match of the name of this city that I did find in the book of Mormon was JACOBUGAT or Jacob-Ugath, in their native language pronunciation it would sound like CHAICALP-UGET or JAICAB-UGAT. Both of these words have strong Hebrew pronunciation as in YAIKUB UGAT or Jacob the Great. Depending wheter Ugat is pronounced with an E or with and an A at the end, this is to signify the place of bread, bakery, and brick. Or as opposite to the word UTAH, UGATH is great deep or bottomless pit, the place Masonry, secret combinations or even where the great mount or the supplanter ascends. This is the place from where the peace was taken from the earth during the times of King Jacob the government supplanter.

Now as far as the Book of Mormon geography it is concerned, these people were no fools. They were exceptional mathematicians and more earth landed than many of or modern Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees that are eager to learn and never get to a knowledge of the truth. Our scholars should stop partaking of the forbidden fruit or of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in so doing they are digging deep into hells mouth by looking beyond the mark.

One with a little orientation and good will and a correct heart can discover by the spirit of truth great hidden wonders, marvels and mysteries. As in the ongoing theories pertaining to the Geography of the Book of Mormon, perhaps all the three, even the Gulf of Darien, the Tehuantepec Gulf and even the Honduran Gulf may qualify as a narrow strip of land as described in the Book of Mormon. But even a small child with simple understanding knows that it refers to the Gulf of Darien in Panama, near the Panama Canal. The Lord will not be so infamous as to try to deceive a kid in search for truth. The land of abundance or Bountiful is no other than Norwest Colombia, in Antioch, Medellin. This place from Colombia has a subtropical climate good for every needful plant and roots, fruits and exotic flowers in all their varieties for textile coloring and manufacture. It is even more suitable for life than Guatemalan’s eternal spring climate.

Now, the Sidon, Pison, Gion, Gibbon, Ondis, Dibos, Donsi, Nisbon, Dison, Dixon, Xodis, Ondix, Xibon, Shiblon, or eve Xideon river pr Valley’s name is to me as spiritual as Gazelem o code name river of water is not other than the Magdalena river in Colombia. It is hidden in plain sight, but people are quick to guess but slothful to search, so they do not find. The head of the waters of this river; or the Aqua-doors of this river is where the Riplakish or great Andes mountain do end. This is right above Quito in Ecuador. The names say it all, AQUADOOR. And in that place also is where there is a small south Anti-Parrah or barren wilderness or desert that serves a s a barrier. The Sidon River runs from South to North and it empties in the North Sea. At the North end or near its delta, there is also a small portion of the river that runs from East to West. And close by to the West of the same area is the MARACAIBO basin or the inland fallen sea, the place of arms. That area serves as or leads to the so called Sea West. And on the South side of the Sidon river, opposite to the side where the Hill Manti is, nearing at the head of this river there is also a curvature that runs from it is a East to West, yet the river still flows there from West to East. This is where the Nephites ambushed the Crossing Lamanites as per the words of the prophet Alma. There is also a smaller river adjacent to the West of the river Sidon that also has a small curvature from East to West, and its waters run from East to West then to go north and empty into the Sidon.

Now, when these precise longitudes and latitudes are precisely or assertively established as landmarks one can begin to pinpoint as the Lord will reveal it where the ancient Book of Mormon Settlements and cities where, are and will continue to be. But one must first learn to walk before endeavoring to run or rush in. Here is the patience of the Saints. I am a just a scribe instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven who is sharing things new and old from the treasures of my Lord in his Holy Name.

Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Then said he unto them, therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

(New Testament | Matthew 13:51 – 52)

Attentively yours

This is a servant in the hands of our beloved SOTER, even Jesus Cristos, for whose glory alone, I write, amen and amen.

Miguel Angel Tinoco Rodriguez

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The Danger of Theorizing – Part I – Lamanite Attacks in Winter – by Del DowDell

As stated in the last post, the sixteen points listed in the Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum website, it is interesting to me that the author of this claim lists only 16 points. I have a list of over 45 points taken right from specific Book of Mormon scripture, plus another 20 coming out of the scriptures in general (such as wars and their location, etc.), or directly from Hebrew culture during the time Lehi lived at Jerusalem. 65 points that must be met for any place or model to qualify as a location for the Land of Promise—not just 18.

But the real problem lies in comments such as the following—his 14th point:

“(14) The winter climate must be bearable enough for Lamanite combatants to wear loin-cloths and shaven heads (Alma 3:5, 20-25)

Now the problem lies in the scriptures quoted:

3:5: “Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth”

3:20-25: Not many days after the battle which was fought in the land of Zarahemla, by the Lamanites and the Amlicites, that there was another army of the Lamanites came in upon the people of Nephi, in the same place where the first army met the Amlicites….the scripture goes on to talk about Alma being wounded and not involved, the Nephites killing many Lamanites and driving the remainder out of the land, then the Nephites returned to their homes, ending with… ”Now all these things were done, yea, all these wars and contentions were commenced and ended in the fifth year of the reign of the judges.”

There is absolutely no mention of any Lamanite WINTER campaign against the Nephites. In fact, all armies and generals know not to mount any serious attack against an enemy during the winter—both Napoleon and Hitler learned that lesson by losing most of their armies in such winter campaigns in Russia. To even consider that the Lamanites came down to do battle with the Nephites during the winter is unthinkable. In fact, any even cursory reading of the scripture shows that after any battle during the first about 900 years of warfare, the Lamanites retreated back to their lands and did not mount another attack until at least a year later—suggesting to any strategist that the Lamanites were in their homeland during the winter, sallying forth during the summer months to attack.

The point is, you can make any claim you want, but the scripture you reference MUST state that claim the way intended. In this case, and in so many cases of Mesoamerican, Great Lakes, Heartland, et all, theorists try to claim something not in scripture. In fact, the only mention of climate in the Book of Mormon is found in Alma 46:40:

“And there were some who died with fevers which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate.”

It is a sad commentary on scholarship when someone has a model of a location in mind and then tries to find ways to defend or support it. Scholarship should be involved in finding ALL the requirements in scripture and then seeing where that might lead one—however, theorizing on locations never allows such and the result is a disingenuous approach to the scriptural record.

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A quote for you on the Zelph story:

“If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion’s Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion’s Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation.

Furthermore, readers would be told that most sources agree that Zelph was a white Lamanite who fought under a leader named Onandagus (variously spelled). Beyond that, what Joseph said to his men is not entirely clear, judging by the variations in the available sources. The date of the man Zelph, too, remains unclear. Expressions such as “great struggles among the Lamanites,” if accurately reported, could refer to a period long after the close of the Book of Mormon narrative, as well as to the fourth century AD. None of the sources before the Willard Richards composition, however, actually say that Zelph died in battle with the Nephites, only that he died “in battle” when the otherwise unidentified people of Onandagus were engaged in great wars “among the Lamanites.”

Zelph was identified as a “Lamanite,” a label agreed on by all the accounts. This term might refer to the ethnic and cultural category spoken of in the Book of Mormon as actors in the destruction of the Nephites, or it might refer more generally to a descendant of the earlier Lamanites and could have been considered in 1834 as the equivalent of “Indian” (see, for example, D&C 3:18, 20; 10:48; 28:8; 32:2). Nothing in the accounts can settle the question of Zelph’s specific ethnic identity.”

Kenneth W. Godfrey, “What is the Significance of Zelph In The Study Of Book of Mormon Geography?,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/2 (1999): 70–79.

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I’m amazed about the research on the Malay Theory, as I am a Malay myself and from Malaysia, and after reading the Malay Theory, I find some of the theory being laid down as accountable. It describes the Malaysian Peninsular as accounted by Claudius Ptolemy as the Golden Chersones. 🙂

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You really make it seem really easy along with your presentation but I in finding this matter to be really something that
I think I might by no means understand. It kind of feels too complex and very large for me.
I’m having a look ahead in your next put up, I will attempt to get the grasp of it!

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Interesting video about the ancient people in the Malay area.

https://plus.google.com/111765639142618871732/posts/NRmNhF12LD5?pid=6015173213115163202&oid=111765639142618871732

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