I was reading the blog “The Vissisitudes of Life” this morning about Gay Rights vs. Civil Rights.
He brings up a point that for some reason I’ve never thought of before in that when God creates man he creates them male and female and commands them to have children. This scripture is common to Jews, Muslims and Christians and therefore a majority of world religions.
This led me to ponder the question of if one is gay can they truly believe in not only the Bible, but other scriptures from the aforementioned faiths as well.
As I thought about this I can see how people can feel strongly in a variety ways.
1. One may argue that they are gay because they are born that way. If you truly believe that you can be born gay, please explain how you can still believe in the Bible.
2. Others will probably come from the camp that you choose to be gay. Please support your opinion on this as well.
3. I can also see how one could say you can be gay and believe the bible, but that being gay is a sin since God commands against it.
What are your thoughts?
Grace for Grace 
38 comments
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January 25, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Christopher
Your post presupposes that one who believes in the bible must be a biblical literalist. Must one believe each and every teaching of the bible in order to qualify as one who “believes the bible”? Can someone disagree with your interpretation of the bible’s teachings concerning homosexuality and still believe the bible? What about the age of the earth? Or the idea that a loving God commanded people to murder other people? Must one accept all of these things and literally true in order to “believe the bible”?
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January 25, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Steve M
I think you’re oversimplifying what is inherently a very complex issue.
The only reason you offer in support of your hypothesis that one cannot “truly believe the Bible and be gay” is that “when God creates man he creates them male and female and commands them to have children.” You have not explained why the Adam and Eve story precludes the possibility that other types of relationships might also be acceptable to God.
Even if one accepts the Adam and Eve drama as literal history, that does not compel the conclusion that all relationships not fashioned after that model are sinful. The Bible itself backs that up: Abraham, Jacob, and other biblical figures each had more than one wife; since that conflicts with the “one man, one woman” Adam and Eve model, why was it acceptable? Jesus and Paul were both celibate, and apparently did not father any children. Why is that okay?
If Adam and Eve actually existed and the Genesis account is more or less historical (which seems doubtful, in my view), then one might argue that while it would make sense for God to propagate the human race by creating a couple capable of biological reproduction, that in and of itself does not constitute an absolute statement as to which kinds of sexual relationships are acceptable in His eyes.
And what does it mean to “truly believe the Bible”? Does it mean believing that it is completely inerrant, down to the very last word (even the part that says eating shellfish is an “abomination”)? Does it mean that the events it reports are 100% historical? Does believing that the Bible is neither inerrant nor entirely historical not constitute “truly believ[ing] the Bible.”
I’m going to suggest that “truly believ[ing] the Bible” is inherently a much broader and complex question than you imply.
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January 25, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Michael
You don’t see how one can be truly gay and believe the Bible?
Man, are you opening yourself up for an fall. You are purposely interpreting one small part of the Scriptures very literally and applicable to everyone in all situations. If that is how you view the Scriptures then you need to interpret every verse that way.
By doing so you are also denying the Holy Ghost the ability to provide any further light and understanding of the Holy Word.
You sure you want to go down this road?
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January 25, 2009 at 7:23 pm
NM
One CAN be gay and believe the Bible, in the same way that a liar, a whoremonger, a gossiper, an adulterer and (dare I say it) even a murderer be: and believe the Bible.
Not wanting to diminish the warning against same-sex relationships (as it seems Paul weighed heavily on it in his letter to the church at Rome), he did however list homo-sexuality AS PART of other equally sinful habits we are all guilty of in his first letter to the church at Corinth (ch. 6). And I reckon we’re all guilty of idolatry =)
If, as a society, we pressed as hard upon idolatry, adultery, theft etc. as we do upon homosexuality – as God does, we’d all be quaking in our boots…
…but thank God for His only begotten Son – who brings a transformation of lives!
We all struggle with sin (just as Paul did in Romans 7). Such is the foothold we have given to our adversary before our conversion to Him. For example, I’m guessing for us guys, our most frequent struggle would be that of fornication/masturbation…But I guess the difference now that we are Christians, is there is now that inner-war (again as described by Paul in Romans 7) where Spirit wages war against flesh and flesh against Spirit…where this probably did not happen before our conversion =)
This is an EXCELLENT post! Gets the old cogs turning.
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October 23, 2009 at 5:36 pm
mike lipko
NM you are dead wrong. you wrote “If, as a society, we pressed as hard upon idolatry, adultery, theft etc. as we do upon homosexuality – as God does, we’d all be quaking in our boots…” its clear to me that you justify a homosexuals actions because of our own sins/”if you live in a glass house you shouldnt throw stones” so to speak. thats bull. no we arent to hang homos and stone prostitutes but what is sin , is sin. and it should be laid out on the table;and there should be a longing desire on behalf of the law breaker to repent and turn from their wicked ways. and as far as one being gay and believing the bible thats bull too, one cannot truly believe Gods laws and think within a reasoning mind that Gods cool with a man doin’ another guy in the oneway street. gods not cool with that and if any of us in this chat box had any sense at all we would clearly see that all the commandments are for our own good, they’re meant to protect humans ! so, basically God is saying hey protect yourself and others , love yourself (in his way/not mans perverted way) and others and you are serving me and doing my will…..wow what a great deal we got and we have the opportunity to be called his son or daughter because of it and he’ll even reward us time and time again plentiously for it…..we are truly ungrateful—-so start by being grateful, and looking to Gods superior and mighty laws and humble yourself. Amen
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April 30, 2010 at 1:33 am
e
If, as a society, we pressed as hard upon idolatry, adultery, theft etc. as we do upon homosexuality – as God does, we’d all be quaking in our boots…
We used to do this. People would be put to death for certain things.
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January 26, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Nameless Cynic
As I said at Vicissitudes, most of the Bible verses used to condemn homosexuality are due to misunderstanding or mistranslating the ancient forms of Hebrew or Greek that the Bible was written in. Malakos, arsenokoites and shakab vs. mishkab are the primary offenders. Read about it here.
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January 26, 2009 at 8:17 pm
larryco_
Can you be anti-genocide and truly believe the Book of Joshua?
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January 26, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Nameless Cynic
I’m not sure I was clear enough one post back.
Because the Old Testament verses used to oppose homosexuality are simple mistranslations, they are perfect examples of what Jesus warned you against in Matthew 15:9 – “But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.”
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January 27, 2009 at 5:18 pm
ezra
It is amazing how we want to imagine that Scriptures don’t speak to certain issues. How can people not read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance, and not understand that the whole town was twisted in the mind like a twisted wild pine? They rejected Lot’s daughters because they wanted to defile Lot’s guests! That is perversion to the max–that pervaded the whole region because the region embraced it. Does it put you in mind of another resort area and a certain city by the bay?
But, as NM said, it’s like any deep-seated sin; just ’cause you are tempted to sin does not mean that you don’t believe in the One who spoke to the sin in Holy Scripture. Rather, it is the power of God and the blessing of God that he calls you to account for your life. It is a blessing that you (anyone, not just the homosexual) are called to account for your sin; convicted of this, you look to the One who will absolve you of that sin and to the one who will work with you to walk away from such temptations in a pure and decent life.
Note, however, that liberals who deny the authority and faithfulness of the Scriptures are also those who deny that Scripture speaks to certain issues. And when there is no getting around the point of Scripture, then the liberal wants to weasel away the issue by ad hominem attacks on true believers and still avoid the point. In their own way, they pick up the Adversary’s line and asks, “Did God REALLY say…?”
Another version of such liberalism is seen in “progressive revelation” which makes every person equal in authority on a biblical issue. In other words, you can’t say that the Bible is an important authority sometimes and just a historical anachronism the next. Surveying the posts, however, you find people who do want to go “down that road.” And why? Because it leads away from a very clearly-stated truth–and from the authority of God. All the while such people overlook the clear words of Christ, in his open prayer to the Father: “Thy Word is truth.” It isn’t surprising that the Adversary became an authority to Eve, replacing the clear words of the Creator with words that were deceiptful. The Word of God brings life, but the words of the false prophet cannot help but bring death. Avoid those that cause divisions contrary to the Word of truth.
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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January 27, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Nameless Cynic
It’s interesting that you want use this passage to condemn loving, consensual same-sex relationships while you remain virtually oblivious to the crime of Lot offering his daughters to be gang-raped by a violent mob speaks volumes about the upside-down world you live in.
In fact, it’s very similar to the story in Judges 19, where a woman is offered to a mob of men to be gang-raped, instead of the man they originally asked for. The difference is that the offer is taken. The woman is raped all night and later killed and dismembered by her lover, and the twelve pieces are sent to the twelve tribes of Israel. But that one is OK, because at least it was heterosexual rape, right?
You have some interesting priorities, Ezra.
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January 27, 2009 at 9:11 pm
ezra
Point One, Cynic: I did not condemn anyone. The Bible did.
Point Two, Cynic: If I WAS using that passage to condemn “loving, consensual same-sex relationships” then that means that you agree that the mob gathered outside Lot’s house ready to gan-rape the guests were indeed those engaged in “loving, consensual same-sex relationships” — Yikes. What a tragic world you must enjoy!
Point Three, Cynic: What Lot did was probably borne of panic, not common sense or even a sense of decency. Do you read Scripture in that way, that historical events means that God endorses everything that was done? Hmmmm.
Point Four, Cynic: The fact that a rabbi later uses Lot’s action prescriptively means that the rabbi didn’t understand Scripture either. The same point applies. Scripture often records what people do and does not comment upon whether they acted correctly or not. There are countless instances of that in the Bible. Unfortunately, there are many who do not take the time to understand what is going on. Read and learn.
I’m glad you like my priorities. You are one confused person.
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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January 28, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Curtis
I do feel one can be gay and beleive in the Bible. I also feel that many who struggle with same sex attraction did not chose to be that way. Whether they were “born that way” or not, I don’t know. I don’t think any of this condones gay behavior, but I am going to have to let God be the judge.
We all struggle with many things, and we all rationalize our particular behavior. Let us love and accept and try to teach and lead in the example of our Savior. If it was important for us to cast stones, I am sure we would have had an example of the Savior casting stones at the adulterous woman, right?
Again, I have come to know that many who struggle with this issue didn’t chose it. That is one of my big questions for God.
How can I (a heterosexual) even be judged on the same plane as one who naturally is not attracted to one of the same sex?
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January 28, 2009 at 5:43 pm
ezra
I apologize for my last response–especially to Cynic, but to all the blogosbrothers. I maxed out on point two and went over the top. That was unloving, to say the least.
I also know those who are homosexual and who try to deal with it biblically. It is a real struggle–but the Christian will always seek forgiveness in Christ. Thanks be to God, he has given us the victory in our Lord Jesus Christ.
One does not need to be a homosexual to know the struggle of dealing with lustful thoughts and actions. When Paul mentions that homosexuals and male prostitutes will not be in the kingdom of God, he means those who persist in that activity, willfully and continually–and that list ALSO includes drunkards, revelers, fornicators, the greedy and the like. Such will not inherit the kingdom ONLY because they were not repentant of their sins and their life-style.
That said…Again, please accept my apology.
Again, there is victory in Jesus. We will not always resist temptation. We will fall into sin. More importantly, let’s not focus on who condemns; focus more on who forgives us and frees us of our sin and shame. We have one who intercedes on our behalf, whose blood still atones for our sins.
Blessings in Christ,
ezra
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January 28, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Nameless Cynic
Ezra,
Don’t worry about being “unloving” – that doesn’t even enter into the argument. You continue to point to the story of Lot as evidence that homosexuality is a sin. It proves nothing. It’s an ugly story and nobody comes out of it unstained. Why do you believe that homosexuality is a sin?
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January 28, 2009 at 8:14 pm
ezra
Cynic asks: Why do you believe that homosexuality is a sin?
My answer: So it is written in Scripture.
It is not hate that points out sin. I sin. I do not benefit if others saw a flagrant sin and failed to point it out. If I willingly sin, I should be willing and ready to bear the consequences.
What appears to be “love” from others is really acceptance of sin.
It is not loving to disregard sin and to pretend there is no wrong.
People who accept ANY sin (not just h~) and who will not point out an offense (so that the person can address that sin) are not loving people.
Such people are really unloving and uncaring, because they will not take the time or take heat to point out that which is unpleasing to the Lord. They are unloving or uncaring or cowards. That helps no one.
Hope that helps.
Ezra
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January 29, 2009 at 8:22 am
Josh
I’ve seen fairly convincing argument that the biblical passages that many interpret as condemning homosexuality actually do not do so. That doesn’t mean homosexual behavior is right, but at the very least it might open the way for a more nuanced understanding of how homosexuality fits into God’s standard of morality and his plan for his children. It could be seen as profoundly frustrating to believe that God likely allows people to be born with homosexual tendencies, and yet to also believe that he commands sex to be only between husband and wife. Why would that person be condemned to a life of, at best, utter self-denial, and, at worst, abandonment of God and his laws? But, similarly, we are commanded to love our neighbor, and yet are all born with self-preservation and competition instincts that cause us to feel anger or even hatred toward others. Once again, how could God condemn everybody “to a life of, at best, utter self-denial, and, at worst, abandonment of God and his laws” by making us all have to overcome those instincts?
Oh wait, that’s one of the main reasons for us being here on earth, anyway, isn’t it? To learn to give our spiritual self primacy, rather than letting the physical self call all the shots. Some may have situations that make that struggle more acute than for others, but to me it seems like it’s ultimately the same struggle. Anyway, this “put off the natural man” thing is a great challenge and often very frustrating, but I think those with faith that God has, through prophets ancient or modern, commanded abstinence from any sexual relation outside of marriage should do their best, remember Christ’s suffering on our behalf, and expect things to make a lot more sense in the next life, especially when we are resurrected.
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January 29, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Nameless Cynic
Yes, Cynic asks that. Does Ezra always speak in third person?
I could try to pin Ezra down, but Ezra seems to like speaking in generalities, too. So Cynic will cut to the chase. (Cynic will also abandon this silly Tickle-Me-Elmo writing style. Cynic is finding it annoying. Cynic apologizes if Ezra prefers it.)
The usual suspects here are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, which both essentially say “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” However, if you go back to the source material, in Ancient Hebrew, you’ll find that the verb used for “mankind” is shakab, and the one used for “womankind” is mishkab. And shakab, in its sexual sense, is used when you are talking about forcible sex (such as, say, rape), or any sex against the will of the victim.
For example, shakab is also the word used in Genesis 34:2, when Shechem defiles Hamor the Hivite; and in 2 Samuel 13:14 – “…but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.” And in Isaiah 13:16 – “Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” It’s even used in Exodus 22:19, “Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.”
There are references to consensual sex in the Bible, but none of them, if you look at the source material (before the translation errors crept in) use the word shakab. So the correct translation of the passages from Leviticus is an exhortation against homosexual rape: “Thou shalt not force sexual congress on a man, as (or instead of) with a woman.”
Which brings us neatly back to the story of Lot and his daughters. Women were considered property in Biblical times, so it was better, if someone were to be raped, that it be the daughters.
I would prefer to follow the Word of God, rather than the Mistranlation of God.
Hope that helps.
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January 29, 2009 at 6:21 pm
ezra
It DOES help, Cynic. You state your case very well. Nevertheless, sodomy is forcible entry into a man; it is lying with a man as with a woman–which goes to the basic point, that homosexuality is not natural. It is a perversion of the intended order of mankind.
However, if that thought WERE a possibility, don’t you think the Rabbis over time would have spoken to this possibility and would have condoned homosexuality? And Rabbis are notorious for sharing a wide range of interpretations for a
Help me out…can you cite a Rabbi (not of the 20th/21st century) that would have even considered this? That would be interesting. And I cannot claim to know that a Rabbi HASN’T made such an interpretation–so it really would be interesting to find out for sure.
And what would be the give-and-take of his fellows?
Otherwise, if this never occurred to theologians through the centuries, such an interpretation would only prove to be a “shoe-horning” of our present times to satisfy certain interests.
FWIW,
ezra
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January 29, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Nameless Cynic
Well, let’s see.
To start with, Verses in the Bible that refer to sodomites reflect an English translation of the Hebrew word qadesh
The Hebrew term asherah is translated as for “the grove” in the latter verse. Asherah is described, in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance as “a Babylonian (Astarte)-Canaanite goddess (of fortune and happiness), the supposed consort of Baal, her images; a) the goddess, goddesses; b) her images; c) sacred trees or poles set up near an altar.”
These verses have to do with idolatry, not homosexuality. Even Strong’s defines the term translated as “sodomite” as “male temple prostitute.” The qadeshim were the holy ones, devotees of the goddess Asherah. In Job 5:1 and 15:5 the qadosh are referred to, meaning sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart. One must remember that there are no vowels in the original Hebrew, that these are added based on context and tradition. The qadosh could easily be the equivalent, in terms of holiness, to the qadesh.
The term sodomite was imposed upon this priestly, yet rival, class of men by translators with no compunction about correlating them to a completely unrelated event, the destruction of Sodom. So, you know, not really the same.
As for condoning homosexuality, you don’t even go to the rabbis. Let’s stay with the Bible. Without the mistranslations of the verses in Genesis and Leviticus the Old Testament says very little about what we today describe as “homosexuality.” But it does describe loving relationships between members of the same sex. The author seems to respect the privacy of the subjects of these stories by describing the loving relationships and not the blow-by-blow accounts of hot man-on-man action desired as proof by some of our more avid brethren. Even “heterosexual” relationships are not described this way: sex is alluded to in terms of the marriage contract, the births of children, and various rapes.
In Deuteronomy 13:6 it is written as follows:
This verse lists a man’s relations in order of closeness, descending to ascending: brother, son or daughter, wife, “friend which is as thine own soul.” This suggests that the man in this society maintains a relationship with another man that is closer than that of his wife, a relationship which is as close “as (his) own soul.”
This relationship is echoed in 1 Samuel 18:1:
For the Christian who can read “homosexual sex” into the key passages of Leviticus and NOT see the “homosexual” relationship in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel, selective literalism has been elevated to a high art form. This art form, however, remains an art, and is not a valid argument that the verses in Leviticus condemn homosexuality.
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February 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm
ezra
From what I gather, then, is that you agree at least that the term overlaps that which was abhorred by God: Hebrew word qadesh, pertaining to the groves where cultic sex was practiced. That is not the only place where terms overlap. I’m not sure why that is a “plus” for you, but, oh well…
As for guys who were friends, I agree that there is no sin in that. But for those who take that as a sign of sexual relations, we will have to part company. I have had friends that were closer than my brothers–but believe me, we never saw that as cause to have sexual relations. And yes, I have had men hit on me…and I would never consider them to be close friends.
Yes, I’m all agreed that Scripture must interpret Scripture; that said, it really helps if people have come up with the same interpretations through the years. As it stands, it seems that only this present age has really designed to twist Scripture to suit their needs. But when the Hebrew was translated into the Greek, for instance, we see that the same understanding was in the works. So, you see, it does matter what previous generations have understood and written about.
Creative hermaneutics, aside, playing fast and loose with Scripture serves no one; better to leave that with the politicians and modernists who believe their is no consequences.
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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February 2, 2009 at 11:21 pm
ezra
Note: I apologize for the obvious spelling and grammatical errors in my previous post; there are no apologies, however, regarding the interpretation of Scripture, which I believe is consistent and true.
Clarification: Scripture has been twisted from the time of creation, of course, with the goal of deceiving many. And in the apostolic times, Peter complained about those who took Paul’s very clear words and purposely perverted his intended meaning. Regarding homosexuality, however, I am not aware of any era where such a campaign has been launched to make it appear right, if not absolutely praiseworthy, to engage in that practice that has certainly never been endorsed by God.
Blessings in Christ,
ezra
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February 3, 2009 at 6:40 am
jackg
I have often thought about this topic. It’s amazing the opinions and attempts to interpret the biblical text. For the Mormons who believe in a living prophet,what does he say on this subject? What have been the teachings of the General Authorities on this subject? I’m pretty sure they teach against homosexuality. But, if you have issues with the authority of scripture, then you’re probably going to have issues with authority in general, including your church leaders.
I find it amazing that nobody has even hinted at the effects of the Fall. Even if science were to find a genetic link, it would not prove that a gay person was intended to be gay, it merely proves that we are in a fallen and broken world. In short, such a scientific find would not change theology.
Can a pedophile say, “I was born a pedophile, and a pedophile is what I am. Therefore, it’s going to be okay for me to have sex with children and still get into heaven because God loves me and this is the way he made me?” I wonder how many commenting on this blog would say the above statement is okay. Can one not see the perversion in this statement? Okay, so you’ll argue that homosexuality is between two adults and not children. But, where does the license to indulge our sexual desires end? Pedophilia and homosexuality are both perversions of what God intended. Read Romans 1 to learn what God’s stand is on homosexuality. Then ask yourself, is the Bible authoritative in my life? The question isn’t whether or not one believes in the Bible; the question is whether or not the Bible is authoritative for me.
This is why I get so upset at JS introducing the 8th Article of Faith. It sets the groundwork for God’s word to be unauthoritative. We can change it if we want. Here’s a test for those of you who want to believe that continued revelation might somehow change God’s already revealed word: test your thoughts that you think is the Spirit speaking to you against the measuring stick of the Bible. Oh, but once again we hit the snag of whether or not the Bible is authoritative for you. Seems like we just can’t get past this point. Regardless, if you’re a Mormon, you have to ask what your leaders are saying on the subject of homosexuality. They’re probably not saying much, but I know they’re saying it’s unnatural and goes against God’s design for humanity.
Grace and Peace!
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February 3, 2009 at 2:01 pm
noclaf
Since the late 60s and early 70s we’ve been living in a “I’m OK, You’re OK” world. Guided by this idea, people don’t really see anything as being authoritative when it comes to certain types of moral behavior. So what’s happened is that we’ve defined deviancy down. If someone doesn’t accept or celebrate someone elses “difference”, they are labeled a bigot. The media and popular culture contribute to this ever downward spiral of morality especially when it comes to sexual conduct. God’s Word is straight forward when it comes to moral conduct. The world does not accept God’s Word as the standard for morality. Even religious groups have jettisoned God’s Word and embraced the moral code of the world. The world loves these religious groups. As far as the Mormons go, the Bible had to be down graded in order to proclaim Mormonism as the real deal revelation from God. So Mormons are all set-up to proclaim “whatever” without much thought as to whether or not the Bible says something authoritative on any topic in particular. If plural marrage could make the cut, why not homosexual behavior?
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February 5, 2009 at 4:35 am
ama49
Jack,
You ask about the Church’s position on the subject of homosexuality.
Here’s a link to the official statement of the LDS church in supporting proposition 8: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-responds-to-same-sex-marriage-votes
Here’s an article by one of the Apostles from the LDS church on how God created us male and female:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=bf10226fecfdb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
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February 5, 2009 at 4:37 am
ama49
noclaf,
You bring up a good point on the polygamy and gay issue. The main difference between the homosexuality issue and the polygamy issue is that there are no references in the Bible to any prophets practicing homosexuality. There are however, a number of prophets who practiced polygamy.
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October 23, 2009 at 5:13 pm
mike lipko
we make reference to the bible as the “gospel truth”; however what we fail many times to mention is that the bible has a highlighter so to speak, a way of truly being aware to its purposeful and enlightening messages; its called the Holy Ghost. most people interpret the bible wrong and as one who has in the past but then sought out this Holy Ghost have become enlightened to many Truths that are for “His sheep”. Am I saying that I am his sheep and most people are’nt, No, rather Jesus says that God loves us all and wishes “that none were lost” but if we refuse to avoid/neglect/ignore his will than condemnation is inevitable because you choose not to be his sheep.The more you choose to be his sheep and follow and study and seek his ways the more like his sheep you become. You see its your choice, God has given us a choice from the begining! if you truly seek Gods will read not the bible-study it…diligently.AND not only study diligently but what we understand not, seek gods answers/revelations….he has Not let me down on all my answers thus far. AMEN
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February 5, 2009 at 6:52 am
jackg
ama,
Thanks for the references. It just makes me wonder how those who claim to be members of the LDS Church can take any position that condones homosexual behavior. Again, why doesn’t anyone talk about the Fall? We are in a broken and fallen world. It was not supposed to be this way.
Peace!
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February 6, 2009 at 2:06 am
ama49
Hi jack,
As you can see from various comments on this topic in this post, people justify homosexual behavior because of other things that people did in the Bible such as Lot sleeping with his daughters (incest) and prophets practicing polygamy or I believe someone mentioned genocide by Joshua taking out a bunch of people.
I’m not sure how one can claim to be a LDS Christian or any other type of Christian for that matter and say that homosexuality isn’t a sin. I guess they just rationalize it somehow. The LDS prophets make it pretty clear it is a sin.
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February 6, 2009 at 6:48 pm
jack
Thanks, ama. I was hoping LDS leaders haven’t changed their position. Could be so kind as to contact me at my email address. I have something I would like to share with you and not the whole graceforgrace world. Thanks!
Peace and Grace!
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February 9, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Samantha
Great thought provoking ideas! I would like to suggest you ponder, with out judgement or condemnation, on whether or not the idea of homosexuality is Physical or Spiritual. Physically we are all built differently and Spiritually we are built differently. The idea that I have floating around in my head is a bit weird, so let me try to explain it from the beginning.
We all know the story of Creation, the Fall, etc. But I want to look at it in a new light: Physical plane and Spiritual plane.
Originally, we were entirely created in God’s image — bodies born from His hands, and not from a mothers’ womb (no belly buttons!). He built the temple to hold our Spirit and then He breathed the Spirit of Life into us. We were pure, Physically and Spiritually. Then came the whole eating the forbidden fruit and we screwed ourselves over.
No longer were our Spirits pure for we learned Good and Evil, and no longer were our bodies pure for our spirits weren’t pure — think of it like having acid in a cup, the cup will break (or in the case of the body, return to dust). We screwed up, and now we aren’t the correct image of God –I have issues with people saying we are The Image of God.
Because of the Fall, our Spirits and Physically bodies don’t match up correctly.(Ever had that issue of wanted to do something, but knowing it was bad? I’d like to argue that, that is a prime example of our Spirits and Bodies no longer in harmony.) We know the difference between Spiritual and Physical — Good and Evil.
So, what does this having to do with homosexuality? Here’s what I’m saying: think of homosexuality in the terms of Spiritual and Physical.
What is God made, and still does, is our Spirit. Our bodies are physically made by our physical father and physical mother, biologically if you’d like. Our parents do not create our Spirit, if they could they we wouldn’t be able to say “I”, “me”, “mine” in the sense we do now. Physically we can be born with defects: missing arms, legs, disorders, etc. This does not mean I blame parents for their children’s disorders — biologically you could argue that it’s their genes fault — but rather I blame the Fall. Spiritually, we are individual beings. That which makes me, me, and you, you, the essence of what makes the self, is of God.
Now here is what I would like to offer:
People are Spiritually different from one another, just as they are Physically different from one another. The Spirit of one man may love the Spirit of another man, the Spirit of one woman may love the Spirit of another woman, the Spirit of one man may love the Spirit of a woman. Are these wrong? I would think not. Love and the Spirit are from God.
Now:is Physically is it wrong if a man loves another man, a woman loves another woman, or a man loves a woman? I think that so long as Spiritually you love that person, you are fine. But if you do not love that person Spiritually, in the way God intended, then you are most likely lusting. Live not by the flesh, but by the Spirit.
Does that make sense? I think that the general problem with the argument of homosexuality is that most people tend to assume that homosexuality is only a physical thing. Think of it Spiritually and we have a whole new ball game. I’d love to hear peoples thoughts! E-mail me if you’d like to chat!
britell11@sbc.edu
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February 9, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Tom
Sodom and Gomorah was evacuated by the righteous because of the sin of homosexuality. No righteous man in any scripture has ever practiced homosexuality. Many seem to explain things philosophically. The bible or any other scripture must be prayed about to find the truthfulness thereof. The same can be done regarding this subject.
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February 12, 2009 at 2:34 am
Samantha
Tom this first part is for you! :
Do you believe that it was only the sin of homosexuality that the city of Sodom was eliminated? If so, I’m curious to know what you think about the allowance of the daughters to be raped in the place of the visitors…
And yes, I also believe that praying is key to understanding truth, but I would also like to ask: what exactly does one do when one prays?
Do we only ask for help and let the situation stand as it is, or do we examine the subject at hand, or do we do both?
I would also like to state that the Bible and its Scriptures are extremely philosophical. The message that Jesus asks us to follow is something that stems from beautiful wisdom — it stems from the message of the Old Testament and blossomed into the message Jesus gave us –and I believe that Jesus was the Greatest Philosopher that walked this Earth. The Old Testament (Job and the Proverbs for example) speak extremely highly of the search for Wisdom, and state that through Wisdom one will become closer to God for Wisdom is Godly. Not only that, but the greatest Biblical scholars are often referred to as Christian Philosophers — one being Augustine of Hippo. If we don’t sit and consider openly and without judgment what the Bible has to offer us, then how do we know we are correct? Church denominations stem from people arguing that they have the best understanding of the Bible and from there, people do not actually study the Bible for all it’s worth.
Here’s a controversial question that a religious leader posed: Is the Bible God or is God God? A brilliant question with an answer that makes people huffy.
Isn’t the answer that God is God, and the Bible is not God? Yes, the Bible is the message OF God, but the Bible is NOT God. There is a difference, and the difference is great. Does this mean we discard it? Heck no! It means that we should respect it and try to live up to the standards that God prescribes us each individually, but we don’t judge people according to it. Jesus, from what the Bible says, states clearly we are not to judge, for judgment is reserved for God only.
Only God can judge, and if the Bible is God’s Words, than that’s God judging people, not people judging other people. So why and how can we, assume we have the right to judge people based on what is God’s understanding?
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October 23, 2009 at 4:50 pm
mike lipko
you are deadwrong and have miss represented the bible, and missquoted it-this is what you wrote “Jesus, from what the Bible says, states clearly we are not to judge, for judgment is reserved for God only.” the bible doesnt anywhere in it read we are not to judge. the bible does read that WE ARE TO JUDGE ! In John 7:24, Jesus said “Do not judge according to appearance (this is the sick way man judges), but judge with righteous judgment( this is Gods judgement”).John5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” read throughout the prophets and moses-they judged man but through righteous judgement-look to solomon for judement or his dad David;no pacifists there!!! the preachers and pastors and followers of them and also those who have not followed the church but their own way have perverted the TRUTH of GOD by saying we are NOT to judge. If we never judge and let all pedifiles,rapists,murderers etc. go and just say oh, well God will deal with it, its not my place, is PURE foolishness and one of the worst forms of evil. but this has been satans will, to decieve you and I so we let it all happen to ourselves and others:without doing Gods will.God and Jesus both commanded that we are to do his will and teach others and we will be great in the kingdom of heaven but not to do and to teach false doctrines is least in Gods eyes! look Jesus said these things of judgement because man has a way of making so many false rules,hypocritical truths, bogus laws to gain power and decieve…this is why we must seek God diligently , believe in his perfectly designed laws and through him and only through him we can judge!!! AMEN and I love you
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March 6, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Stan Peel
How we stumble when we try to rationalize a moral code.
There is only One who will judge all things in the end.
My basis for saying this may be found in Pro 15:2 & Rom 1:22.
Chew on that for a season.
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October 23, 2009 at 4:21 pm
mike lipko
NO you can not be homosexual and truly believe in the bible nor the scriptures within. why? because Jesus the son of God the creator of both the spiritual world (unseen) and the physical (seen) says time and again throughout the Bible that if one does not do his will it is because he does not believe in his will. John14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Pharisees, sadducees for example did not the will of God because they sought the desire of man and the glory of man, also the lusts of the physical world. Because they sought after the physical;money, fame,power they knew not who Jesus was,they were blind to see what was Truly Righteous because of their own delusionary idea of Truth. John14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. you can say that you believe in a snippit here or there in the Bible that fits your idealogy of Truth,or you can say you believe in most or all of it:but DOING Gods will is the True test that God seeks. God he wants us to dig a little deeper;take the beliefs you have and match them up with his Truths of God! You’ll see your ideology does’nt compare to Gods FACTS//LAWS, you are a hypocrite through-an-through and you cant even see it. This is what Repentance is all about, men who have a glimmer of Truth about God and the TRUE belief in HIM know that we cant even barely talk to God knowing how disgusting we are in comparison!! Our selective choices as a human race of what is good or “agreeable” are our man-made beliefs and Gods beliefs are TRUTH (they cant change/they will exist for all time)and ’cause we are choosing most if not all the time oppositions to Gods will our beliefs collide!! Matthew10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword (a sword of Truth that conflicts with mans ideologies.) this sword will cut you up,has cut you down and will continue to destroy you, because its purpose is to slice through all LIES. The day you humble yourself and mean it and realise God is supreme and you are infantile and seek Gods truth and weed out your ugly false truths DAILY is the day you will begin to truly awaken and live a rich and rewading life full of abundance! just as God said we are not to eat human flesh(cannibalism) we are not to have same sex relations nor relations with beasts!!WHY? cause it wasnt, isnt and never will be his plan. come on people its not rocket science here!God gave us reason,creativeness and free will above all the creatures of the Earth. And we still dumb ourselves down with the barbaricness of a simple dog. draw nigh to him and he will to you. Ihad Faith in this thought(drawing nigh) and it radically alter my life and my course for the better. amen
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December 16, 2009 at 1:34 am
Kyle
Yes you can. Just like all the divorced and remarried people can believe in it. It is all about how you want to read it. Read it one way and divorce, to have sex before marriage, is all a sin, loving another mans wife even after divorce is a sin. It all about what the church wants to follow. Do they lose money by saying divorce and re marriage is wrong, or do they say No you are reading it wrong or ignore that section is does not apply in this and age. Just like the section on owning slaves, the bible states it’s ok, but we know in this day and age it is not. It is all based on how you want to read into it. It’s all based on what the lion share of the people want. It is never going to be by the book. Everyone every day sins. No one is without sin. The churches are not hard up and looking for more money. When they do get hard up being gay will be ok, they will welcome them in just for the money to keep there houses running. One does not have to go to church to speak or hear gods words. It called the bible. Read it some time. It might just shock you when you don’t have the church telling you what it really says.
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April 25, 2010 at 4:55 pm
John Berry
God creates man he creates them male&female&commands them 2 have children!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel if god wanted either man with man&women with women i would not be alive. Why was adam&eve in the bible if god believed that men&men together or women&women!!!! I dont believe he wants that otherwise i would not be alive!!!!
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