Today in church some words from the Hymn “In Humility our Savior” stuck out to me. The verse is the end of the second verse and reads as follows:
…Then, when we have proven worthy
Of thy sacrifice divine,
Lord, let us regain thy presence;
Let thy glory round us shine.
“When we have proven worthy” stuck out to me. I thought to myself how none of us are really worthy of Christ’s sacrifice, but he did it for us anyways and it is through his Grace that we are saved. I decided to look at the scriptures and see what they have to say.
I looked in Romans, chapter 10 verse 4 to start with, which reads:
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
According to this scripture alone it appears that all one needs to do is believe in Jesus since he’s the end of the law to be saved.
The next scripture that came to mind was James 2:19 that states the devils also believe in God.
So if the Devil believes in God and belief is all that one needs why then isn’t the Devil saved?
The answers are found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Later in Romans 10:10 we read:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
It appears that there is a difference between merely believing in God and believing with one’s heart.
In the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 2 we read how our hearts should be in order to have the type of belief that will result in salvation. Verses 6-10 read as follows:
6 Wherefore, aredemption cometh in and through the bHoly cMessiah; for he is full of dgrace and truth.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, asave it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who blayeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the cresurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make aintercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.10 And because of the intercession for aall, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be bjudged of him according to the truth and choliness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the dpunishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the eatonement—
Grace for Grace 
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January 19, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Doc
Lucifer did not believe in Jesus enough to have confidence he would fill his role here on Earth, hence the war in heaven. This of course begs the question, everyone born on Earth believed at one time, are we all saved? The trick is to believe again, with the veil obscuring things. I think belief unto salvation is a matter of believing Christ more than believing in Christ, ala Stephen Robinson. It is a matter of making the atonement effective in your life by allowing it to make a mighty change within you.
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February 20, 2015 at 1:21 am
KAHUNA GURU
SATAN MAY BELIEVE IN CHRIST , BUT DOES NOT DECLARE HIM AS THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD , NOR DOES HE DECLARE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR MANKINDS SINS ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY INTO EVERLASTING AND ETERNAL LIFE….>Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.”1 John 4
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January 19, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Eric Nielson
Yeah, things like repentance, and baptism, and commandment obeying, and charitable service are over-rated. Just sit back and believe and all will be well.
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January 19, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Mormon Heretic
Eric,
Why the sarcasm? Is it just too difficult to answer, so you just pupu the idea? Can’t you think of a better response?
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January 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Doc
Eric,
Repentance, baptism, commandment obeying, and charitable service are all things you do when you really believe Christ. They are all much, much easier when motivated by a pure love rather than duty. You are falling into the either or trap promoted by evangelicals everywhere.
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January 19, 2009 at 11:31 pm
ama49
Hi Doc,
Good thoughts on your first comment. The point I’m trying to make is one that you make as well about Lucifer. His deal was that he was prideful and he therefore fell. If we’re prideful we will also fall.
In your last comment you nail it on the head as well. In Alma 32 he discusses the steps to gaining faith in Jesus and the first step is humility. We need to be humble first, then comes Faith and Christ enters our hearts next we have the desire to repent, be baptized, do good works, etc. And you’re right, our works are ideally motivated out of love and not merely duty.
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January 19, 2009 at 11:36 pm
ama49
Mormon Heretic,
Welcome back!
I think what Eric did is very common with many of our fellow LDS friends. We tend to jump all over someone if they merely mention belief or faith without works. I believe personally that faith alone isn’t what we need, but it is the first step and the works will come afterwards. After all, it’s not real faith or love if there are not good works that follow, as Doc has already pointed out. My intent for this post was to show how important it is to make that first step in inviting Jesus into our hearts.
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January 20, 2009 at 12:17 am
Doc
There is no doubt Lucifer was full of pride, but there was more than that. Lucifer lacked faith in Christ. He knew what Christ said he would do, but I don’t think in his heart he believed it. Neither did the third of the host of heaven that followed. They feared or even abhorred the idea of agency and reliance on Christ.
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January 20, 2009 at 5:39 am
ezra
You are right, Ama, in saying that knowing and believing are two separate things. James’ whole point was that merely believing in God is immaterial. “You say you believe in God? Big deal; the Devil believes–and trembles.” (my loose paraphrase)
What does that say about Joe Agnostic who says, “I believe in God, but I’m not sweating the details.”
James is saying, “Sweat the details brother; at least Satan has the sense enough to tremble!”
As you point out, Lucifer, the “angel of light” was indicted for his arrogance and for assuming that his splendor was proof that he was equal to God. Lucifer and all the created angels who worshiped him were cast out by the Creator; they were cast into the prison of hell to await judgment (2 Peter 2:4-11 4).
Lucifer (et al) are locked into their wickedness, just as God’s angels are locked into their righteousness. Man is the focus of God’s work of salvation. For this purpose, God’s angels are directed to help the believer in his time here on earth. (“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14)
We would be locked into our wickedness forever were it not a matter of God’s mercy. “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ…”
And the Gospel of John begins by saying that Jesus came to his own people and was not recognized by them. The Gospels show the Jews opposing and despising Jesus–and therefore despising and opposing God and His authority over them. Those that He came to die for did not love Him, yet He loved them. These people did not deserve God’s favor…yet were shown great mercy. I urge you to consider this great truth and ponder these things often.
“For when we were still without strength (totally powerless), at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
That being said, how could we sing the following:
Then, when we have proven worthy
Of thy sacrifice divine,
Lord, let us regain thy presence;
Let thy glory round us shine.
When is a beggar worthy of money? Some would say, “When he works for it.” But there is nothing about the person that makes him worthy to receive. Anything that is given to him is a gift.
That is what makes the Gospel the Gospel: it is always about what God has done for us–and still does–to make us worthy.
We will never prove ourselves worthy of Christ’s sacrifice.
That is the whole point of GRACE:
God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense.
We only “prove ourselves worthy” when we believe.
And that is like the beggar who holds tightly to the gift and realizes that it is his–only because the Giver made him worthy to receive.
And that is what we always are: beggars who have been made kings and priests, for the sake of Jesus Christ.
Blessings in his holy name.
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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January 20, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Eric Nielson
ama. Doc, etc.,
Thank you for your charitable replies. I guess what I was mostly trying to say (perhaps in a bad way) is that if the devil believes, he did not do any of the things which come after. That was my answer to the question in the post.
As I read your post and comments again, it appears that you are making the point that he never really believed in the first place.
Again thanks for not returning crankiness for crankiness.
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January 20, 2009 at 4:50 pm
ama49
Hey Eric,
No worries! I understand because I’ve done the same thing before. It’s all good.
Ezra,
I agree with your comments as they reflect my purpose in writing this.
Doc,
Thanks for the deeper clarification and I agree with you as well.
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January 20, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Eric Nielson
As I think about the post more, I think an important question to ask is what is meant by ‘worthiness’ in the hymn you site.
Does worthy mean perfect? (I would say no)
Does worthy mean self-sufficient in terms of salvation? (Again no)
Does worthy mean we do not need God anymore? (Of course not)
So what does worthy mean anyway?
I would say that God’s grace is conditional. He sets the conditions, and they are possible. If we meet the conditions he sets, then we are worthy of whatever blessings he passes along.
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January 20, 2009 at 6:33 pm
ezra
Eric, you are confusing Law and Gospel.
You say that God’s grace is conditional. What you mean to say is that God does set conditions to approach him–but that is not grace, that is law. God says:
“Be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.”
Unfortunately, his conditions are not attainable. That means we must rely on God’s grace, not what we believe to be true about ourselves and never about what we can achieve.
Are you holy, Eric? Then you are better than Moses, who fell on his face in the presence of God. It was the grace of God that made Moses the deliverer of Israel, even when Moses was reluctant. When Moses sinned against God, God spared him. That is grace. Moses was never worthy on his own; his glory was always of God. Moses never “met God’s conditions;” God met Moses in his condition and made him worthy. Moses was never worthy on his own.
Are you holy, Eric? Then you are better than Isaiah, who fell face-first in the presence of God. According to the hymnist, Isaiah should have been able to stand in God’s presence–after all, he was a prophet of God.
Isaiah couldn’t. Rather, he confesses that he is a man of unclean lips and he lives among a people of unclean lips. Note that it is God who touches Isaiah’s lips and makes Isaiah holy and causes him to stand in his presence. Even after this event Isaiah confesses the true condition of himself and Israel: Even our righteous acts are like menstrual clothes (64:4-9).
God sets an unattainable condition for anyone to attain. He does this because he is truthful and just. No one can become worthy on their own. No one can remain holy or perfect without God. The point of the Law (what we must do and must not do; how we must be) is to direct us to the Gospel. The Gospel points us to a righteousness that belongs to Jesus alone: he alone is worthy (Rev 5:6-12)
Only by believing in Jesus can one be worthy to stand in God’s presence; only then are we forgiven. When we think we can stand on our own merit, without Christ, we will fail.
Only in that regard is God’s love conditional: believe and be saved; fail to believe and be condemned. (John 3:18)
Hope that helps!
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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January 20, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Doc
The real question Eric, does worthy mean deserving?
You seem to fall into the yes category. Yet the point is made quite well in the post here that none of us can ever be deserving of the sacrifice Christ made for us. I think this is inarguable. To believe we earned it is to fall victim to pride.
There simply isn’t some magic point at which God takes a look at all the things we did (BTW, are you implying they occur without any help from him?) and says, okay, that’s enough, now the atonement applies to you. You’ve put the cart in front of the horse.
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January 20, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Eric Nielson
Doc:
That would be up to God. He says – if you do this, you will get this blessing. I am simply saying God sets the criteria, and that there is criteria. The criteria we meet may be very small in comparison to the promised blessing.
Part of what I am saying is that God is just, and that mercy can not rob justice. He will not treat me differently than he will treat you. He is not random, capricious or arbitrary. He is ‘bound’ when we do what he says, and if not, we have no promise. When we receive any blessing it is by obedience to the principle upon which the blessing is predicated.
And no, the cart is not in front of the horse. God has already provided the gift for us, and he sets criteria for receiveing the gift. There is no question about which comes first.
I am not sure what you are getting at with the any help from Him question.
So maybe some questions from me:
Will everyone enjoy all the blessings of the atonement regardless of what they believe or do?
If not, what is the difference between those who do enjoy the blessings and those who do not? Is it based on something God did differently, or something the individuals did differently?
Is salvation/exaltation absolutely unconditional?
Just because we meet God’s criteria, does not mean that we create salvation for ourselves. It does not mean that we somehow executed the atonement for ourselves.
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January 20, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Doc
1st ?- No
2nd ?- turning our heart toward God rather than shutting him out, something we do differently. In the end, our heart is the ONLY thing we have, which we can give to God that he does not automatically have.
3rd ?- Salvation-yes/Exaltation-no. Although, to be quite frank, I believe God wants everyone to progress as far as possible. We are the ones who trample that plan under foot because we refuse, to understand, to learn, or to let him in.
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January 21, 2009 at 4:29 am
ama49
eric,
you ask what is meant by “worthiness”? i hope i made the point that humility and faith in Christ are what makes us “worthy”.
those are the two things satan doesnt have.
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January 21, 2009 at 11:56 am
Eric Nielson
Doc:
Good answers. In a general sense I do not think we have any significant disagreements.
ama49:
well said. These are things we must choose to give, and these things have certain fruits which go with them.
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January 21, 2009 at 4:03 pm
ezra
In summary, then, we agree that we are not worthy of God’s grace.
Ama, a little research reveals that this is a communion hymn; in which case I would amend the verse to read (by caps):
Fill our hearts with sweet forgiving;
Teach us tolerance and love;
Let our prayers find access to thee
In thy holy courts above.
Then, THOUGH WE ARE NOT worthy
Of thy sacrifice divine,
Lord, let us RECEIVE thy presence;
Let thy glory IN us shine.
After all, it is the REAL Christ we seek, in the bread and wine, to be present in us, by his body and blood, to grant us the forgiveness of sins. With Christ present in the sacrament, as he promises, there is forgiveness–and with forgiveness, there is holiness–and with his holiness we are worthy, indeed.
Blessings in Christ,
Ezra
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January 22, 2009 at 5:48 pm
ama49
Everyone,
I’m glad we can come to an agreement. Good discussion!
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February 3, 2009 at 6:16 am
jackg
ama,
I was impressed that you did not make the claim for works, but stuck to your conviction about the state of the heart. Good job.
As an evangelical, I must say that works are a response to God’s grace in our lives. I still think the Mormon perception, as espoused here in the comments, make our works something that we absolutely need to do. The works will come as a response and out of love for God and fellow humanity.
ama, I do have to disagree about your idea that we can make ourselves worthy. We could never make ourselves worthy, but if you’re talking more in line with Christ’s righteousness imputed to us, then I can agree with where you’re coming.
Peace and Blessings,
jackg
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February 14, 2009 at 11:27 pm
ht
Pride is believing you can do something to repay a FREE gift.
That somehow you can do something that would even scratch the surface on the gift of salvation is laughable at best.
Think about it…you get to heaven and you boast to all your friends…YES I DID IT!!! I earned my way to Heaven. Patting yourself on your back for all the GOOD YOU HAVE DONE.
Does that not seem wrong to anyone else reading this?
Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that NO ONE can BOAST. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
We ARE created to do good works, but that is not what saves us.
Have you ever seen someone accomplish a great thing on their own and not boast?
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February 22, 2009 at 10:18 pm
ama49
ht
You’re absolutely right in that we need to acknowledge the hand of God in all of our accomplishments. The point of this post was to point out that merely believing in Jesus isn’t enough though. The devil believes in Jesus too. We need to do something to show our faith and commitment in Jesus…and what we need to do starts with humbling ourselves. Salvation doesn’t come to those who sit around and do nothing because if you have real faith in Jesus you’ll have actions to go with it. Faith without works is dead and it is by grace we are saved because no amount of works can save us alone.
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February 23, 2009 at 4:44 am
ht
what about “after all we can do” in 2 nephi? grace only kicks in after all we can do!!
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October 8, 2009 at 3:25 am
ama49
HT,
after all we can do is up for interpretation. Some people mistakenly think (in my opinion) all we can do means serving and working to try to earn salvation.
Personally, I feel that “all we can do” means turn our hearts to Jesus. That is all we can do. The next thing we can do is put ourselves in a position so our hearts will always be a home where Jesus’ spirit can dwell. After that, everything is up to Jesus and he’s the ultimate judge of our salvation.
If one doesn’t do this grace won’t “kick in” as you state.
Do you think there is anything else we can do or does what I state cover it?
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October 5, 2009 at 3:28 am
june hawkins
jesscia,I am very familiar with the Baptist faith. they are very good people. since you believe in heaven or hell when you die; i must ask, why then a judgement day? also why does it speak of the different degrees of glory in the king james version of the scriptures? alsoyou speak of Jesus Christ as if he were God the Father. In the scriptures it says the Father and I are one. This meaning one in purpose. not one being.Why would Jesus in the garden of Gethsamene have prayed to himself? i wantyou to know The Church Of jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on the earth today. I do not say this in arrogence but in great humbleness. I stumbled on this web site quite by accidence.I hopeyou find your way. i would suggest prayer.june hawkins
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October 6, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Doug
Hello All
Just to clarify the reformed position (calvinist) on faith and works. There is true faith and there is false faith. Good words are the natural fruit that is born from true faith. If Jesus Christ is truly your Savior-he has begun the work of making you like him. If you have a life devoid of works-you do not possess true faith. Like James says, “faith without works is dead.” Amen! Our works do not save us-they are the natural outcome of our new nature. As ama49 expressed it-we do the works out of our love for Jesus. Love is always the best motivator. Let me address concerns about “cheap grace.” I was a Life and Witness Counselor at a Billy Graham Crusade and I can tell you that simply coming down and saying a prayer does not mean that you are saved. Some people experience true conversion and some do not. Again, thank you ama49 for giving clarity to that issue as well. Conversion is an attitude of the heart and not the position of the body.
To further explore the faith/works issue there is a
wonderful little book that describes the work of sanctification in the believers life entitled “My Heart, Christ’s Home” and explains what happens when we receive Jesus as our personal Savior and Lord.
God Bless!
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October 8, 2009 at 3:21 am
ama49
Doug,
thanks for stopping by and for the great book reference and summary of grace, faith, and works. Amen to what you said.
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April 26, 2010 at 5:27 pm
raymund
hi. my name is raymund abundo and i was searching the internet for something else when i stumbled on this discussion. i became interested and read through the whole discussion and would like to make several comments.
but first,let me introduce myself and give a testimony of myself so that you’ll all know me better. i’m 37 years old, from manila, philippines. i have a bachelor’s degree in geology from the university of the philippines. i currently work as an environmental consultant in singapore.
with respect to faith, i was raised a baptist since 10 yo. at that age also, i said the words together with my teacher/pastor then that i am a sinner and ask God to forgive me my sins, and i accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. i lived a roller coaster kind of life ever since – i would sin, knowingly and unknowingly, be convicted in my heart, ask God for forgiveness, sin again and so on. i had a hate-love relationship with God with more hate (i mostly did not love God by disobeying His commands) than love. and when i obeyed, those times were short, brief, and on hindsight not even genuine. it came to a point in my later years that i would pray to God to just take me home so that i would not sin against Him anymore. i really believed within myself that i do not want to sin against God anymore and so would try to find a way to kill myself, passively, not sinning by committing suicide, but through some other way.
then one day,during my first year of stay here in singapore, through a series of events, a process that took months and weeks and days culminating on that one day, God finally opened my eyes to His grace, which He is giving me in abundance, so that i might truly have a close relationship with Him according to His will/plan for me, which is to be sanctified/set apart for His special purpose for me/to be like His Son, my Lord Jesus. to make a long story short, i am the prodigal son Jesus was talking about in Luke 15.11-32. with this testimony, with gentleness, and prayer for God’s guidance and wisdom here are my comments.
The question posed in this forum/discusiion was “If the Devil Believes in Jesus why isn’t he Saved?”. (By the way, i personally welcome and appreciate questions such as this because it gives everyone – every human being who stumbles on this site – the chance to read God’s word and know who He is, perhaps leading to knowing Him as Lord and Saviour) anyway, to continue, James 2.19 was cited in the discussion, to quote,
“The next scripture that came to mind was James 2:19 that states the devils also believe in God.”
let’s all stop herre for a moment to give my comment. My first comment is that the cited verse in the Bible – James 2:19 – that “states [that] the devils also believe in God” is misleading. James 2:19 says – in four different versions of the Bible namely KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, in fact in all versions – [NIV] “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” the verse says that the demons, or the devils, believe that there is one God. it does not say that the devil (or devils or demons) believes in God. all it is saying is that there is only one God. this verse has nothing to do at all with the question posed in this forum.
my second comment is that the question posed in this forum/discussion is misleading. perhaps the question “If the Devil Believes in Jesus why isn’t he Saved?” would be better rephrased as “Does the Devil (or devils or demons) Know who Jesus is?” the answer is yes. Mark 1:33-35
“33The whole town gathered at the door, 34and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.” also, Mark 5.7, Luke 4.41, Luke 8.28. even fallen angels know who Jesus is.
my third comment is that the next quoted Bible verse, Romans 10.10, was used within the forum/discussion here out of context as mentioned in the Bible. Romans 10.9 says [NIV] “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ” i think we have to be careful here what is meant by the word “believe” as it is used within the context of Romans 10. we know the book of Romans was written for human believers in Christ who are Romans, which are non-Jews, or Gentiles. the book of Romans was not written for or addressed to fallen angels.
let me approach this in another way by asking this question: Does the devil (or devils or demons) “confess” with their mouths as it were that Jesus is Lord? Yes. they admit that Jesus is Lord as cited in the verses two paragraphs before. they admit it. they know the truth but they do not hold to the truth as stated in John 8.44. how about the second part of Romans 10.9? Does the devil believe, as written in Romans 10.9, in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead? well, he knows that God raised Jesus from the dead because it already happened, it is already part of history. i guess the next logical question is, “now that he knows God raised Jesus from the dead, can the devil believe this and accept it so that he (or they, devils/demons) can be saved? i think the best answer for this is the one given by Jesus, from God Himself, when He said: John 8.44 “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a MURDERER from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. ” capitalization is from me. reading John 8.31-47 shows us the circumstances, what was happening when Jesus said that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. would a murderer want to see someone live again after killing that someone? no. that is the devil’s nature, he is a murderer, a killer, a liar. he has set himself against God and so is now incapable of lobing God and obeying His commands. because of this, the devils cannot be saved. James 4:4
“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God”. who is the ruler of this world? Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
i write this for the glory, praise and worshp of the only God. i write this for edification/building up of the faith of those who are saved and already believe and have faith in Jesus and His resurrection. i write this for those who are not yet saved that you may know Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and so be saved.
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April 26, 2010 at 6:58 pm
ama49
Hi Raymound,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your testimony. Also, thank you for your thoughts and addition to the discussion.
Feel free to stop by anytime. I can tell you have the Lord’s Spirit with you. You’re welcome any time to stop by and add to the discussions we have.
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April 27, 2010 at 6:56 pm
raymund
thanks for your comment, ama49. i’ll continue then.
there is another topic that was opened in the opening of the forum/discussion, which is probably best posed by this question: What does one need to do to be saved?
I quote from the forum/discussion:
—start of quote 1—
“I looked in Romans, chapter 10 verse 4 to start with, which reads:
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
According to this scripture alone it appears that all one needs to do is believe in Jesus since he’s the end of the law to be saved.”
—end of quote 1—
;and
—start of quote 2—
“Later in Romans 10:10 we read:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
It appears that there is a difference between merely believing in God and believing with one’s heart”
—end of quote 2—
Based on the what the Bible says for quote 1, in John 5.24 “I [that is, Jesus] tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” i would like to examine closer what the Bible has to say about the term “believe” as used in the Bible.
it is plain from Jesus’ own words from the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as well as from God’s Word in other books of the Bible besides these four, that to “believe” in the Lord Jesus and the Lord God the Father and God the Holy Spirit – to believe in God – is to not just know in our individual mind and heart that God is the only God but to also believe that everything that is written in the Bible is true and real, as true and real as the car we drive to work, as the people we interact with everyday, as any physical object that we see/taste/touch/see/feel. and not only that, if we believe and accept and do and obey what God has commanded us in His word to do: to love Him and show this love in our lives by obeying or doing His commands (John 14.21). this love for God and obedience to Him serves another purpose: by loving God and showing this love by obeying God’s commands, we know within ourselves and are assured that we are saved (as said in James 2.14-25). we do not obey blindly like some machine nor do we obey out of ignorance (2 Timothy 1.12; 1 Peter 1.14).
i thank God that i have fellow believers in Jesus such as you, ama49, even though we belong to different denominations. i love you as a brother in Christ, and i pray even now that what i am about to say would not offend you, or cause you to sin , or be discouraged from your faith; instead i pray that the things i’m about to say would encourage you and build you up “in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3.18; Ephesians 4.12-13). What i’m about to say is this:
it is my understanding that you are a Mormon and a member of the Latter Day Saints. it is my understanding that The Book of Mormon is one of four sacred texts or standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_mormon), the others being the Bible (the King James Version), the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. it is my understanding that “Church members officially regard the Book of Mormon as the “most correct” book of scripture, in that “a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book” (please correct me if some or all of what i understand is in error ). i do not deny that the texts in the book of Mormon are similar in theme, and sometimes in writing as well, to the Bible. in fact, i have read several passages so that i can say this. but there are some verses in the Mormon book that that i would say are not quite in agreement with what the Bible says, or that i would say raises more questions for a layman who would read it, or that is open to interpretation. probably one good example for me is 2 Nephi 2.7 “Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.” on this basis and on the fact that Latter Day Saints regard the Mormon book as “most correct book of scripture”, i disagree. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life;” (John 14.6). to believe in God, to believe in Jesus, is to believe that what He says is true. If Jesus is the truth, and if what He says is true, then the Bible which is God’s Word and everything written in it is true (John 1.1; 2 Timothy 16-17). if the Bible which is God’s word is true, how can any other “weigh” more than it?
i do not question your faith in Jesus, ama49. my question is, how would the book of Mormon help you in building up your knowledge in the Son of God and become mature, in building you up so that we can reach maturity together in the faith, the end of which is to attain the whole measure of the fullness of Christ? Knowing now that the Bible – all 66 books – is the only true Word of God (2 Timothy 3.16)? in asking this question, i do not mean or even imply that i am judging you or the Latter Day Saints. far from it! (James 4.12). my purpose is to stimulate your mind ask the same questions so that you would search the Bible and find out if what i say here is true, and so be convinced by the Holy Spirit that only God and so only His Word is true, so that your knowledge (and faith) in Jesus the Son of God would become mature, so that you would be more effective in this knowledge, to the glory and praise of God alone.
i pray to God in Jesus’ name that He will stimulate you to search for the truth on this matter and that He will lead you to the truth in His time, just as He has done for me in my life.
your friend and brother in Christ.
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April 29, 2010 at 6:00 am
ama49
Hi Raymund,
I appreciate your concern for my faith and for doing a fair amount of research on the Book of Mormon from fairly legitimate sources.
One scripture I like in the Book of Mormon, and have found to be true in life is one found in Moroni 10 (you can view it here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10). It tells us to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
I have found this scripture to be true on many levels. First off, I know that God answers prayers and leads us by the power of the Holy Ghost. Secondly, I know that whatsoever thing is good, just and true is of Christ. There are many things that are good, just and true in life, including the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, many books that people write, testimonies of people who have lived before and now…there are many, many things that testify of Christ.
You ask me to open up my mind to learn of the Bible and believe that it is the only word of God. I actually feel that it is narrowing my vision to believe that God has limited himself to one book. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe it is a miracle that the Bible has been passed down and lasted throughout the ages and it is an amazing book. However, in my opinion, it is God’s desire that we come to truly know him by opening and expanding our minds to learn of Him in other ways, which include the Bible and other books.
I appreciate your concern, but you can rest assured that you do not need to worry about me or any other LDS people. We believe in the same God that you do and we receive the same answers to prayers that we offer in faith. My experience is that God is a liberal God and very merciful when we come to Him in humility and prayer. I encourage you to also read one of my most recent posts that discusses how Christians and LDS can join forces to help those who do not believe. I actually have a couple that I’ve written recently and have had some very good conversations with fellow Christian believers. Here is one: https://graceforgrace.com/2010/04/15/youre-a-rare-person-to-see-common-ground-between-lds-and-non-lds-chrisitans/
And here is another one: https://graceforgrace.com/2010/04/02/finally-a-christian-group-that-admits-lds-are-christians-too/
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April 29, 2010 at 12:40 pm
raymund
hi ama 49.
some clarifications from me:
1) what do the word “things” refer to in Moroni 10.4, and also the term “it” in the “truth of it”?
Moroni 10.4 “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. ”
the verse in the Bible i could think of that sums all of Moroni 10.4 is James 1.5 ” If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
2) When you said “First off, I know that God answers prayers and leads us by the power of the Holy Ghost.”, i just want to be clear that the Bible says is that prayers according to God’s will are answered (1 John 5.14). Not all prayers are answered unless it is God’s will. and yes the Holy Spirit leads us who believe in Christ.
3) When you said, “Secondly, I know that whatsoever thing is good, just and true is of Christ”, i agree; and not only that, but whenever we experience hardships and trials in our lives, they are also of Christ.
Now, about your statement “You ask me to open up my mind to learn of the Bible and believe that it is the only word of God. I actually feel that it is narrowing my vision to believe that God has limited himself to one book.”, i can only say the opposite, that God has revealed to us the fullness of Himself in the Bible. and the good thing is that it’s not composed of only one book, but 66 books! 🙂 each book was written in different times over a period of 1,500 years (if i am not mistaken), written by people from different professions (fisherman, king, shepherd, tax collector, doctor, etc), different stations in life (rich and poor), different circumstances (during persecution, during slavery, during exile, during hardships, during good times), different stages in life (young to old). but no matter when or where or in what circumstanc each book was written, every book of the Bible reveals the character of God, reveals Him fully. it even says in Romans 1.19,20 “19-Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse”
Now, about your statement “However, in my opinion, it is God’s desire that we come to truly know him by opening and expanding our minds to learn of Him in other ways, which include the Bible and other books.”, i am more of the opinion that God’s only will for man, the purpose why God created all of us, is to love Him and obey His command (Ecclesiastes 12:13; John 14.15). in order to truly know God, we must do what God has commanded us to do with regards to our lives, with regards to how we interact with other people (both believers and unbelievers), and with regards to our relationship with God, in love.
my worry is not that you are saved, if that’s what you’re thinking, or if other LDS are christians or not. my worry is that God’s word would not be given its due respect (and therefore the Author of God’s word, who is God would not be also) because we rely on other books above the Bible. as much as it pains me to say this to you because i am worried and troubled that it would shake your faith in God and cause you to stumble in your walk with Him, i must say so in the hope that God would one day also give you the same wisdom He has given me to know the truth about what we are discussing:
i have read several chapters of the book of Mormon and it appears to me that several verses in the book of Mormon is similar in theme to the verses in the Bible. one good example is 2Nephi 2:9b “… and they that believe in him [Jesus] shall be saved.” but the more i read of the book of Mormon, the more i see the differences between it and the Bible, especially in matters concerning the grace God has given us. (we can discuss more about this in another topic if you want). the Mormon book was written about 421 AD (at the footnote of this web address, referring to verse 1 of Moroni 10: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10). it was written about 300 years since the time of Jesus. no other books or letters were accepted to be part of the Bible after 100 AD because of the proliferation of other false gospels that were coming out during that time which are contrary to what was written and taught by those who were eyewitnesses to the life and apostles of Jesus such as Peter, Paul, James, etc. looking at the style of how the book of Mormon was written (which is similar to the King James version of the Bible), the Mormon book is just copying the style of the King James Version. i can say that the Mormon book, or at least most of it, is more of an abridgement of the Bible rather than the very word of God. for these reasons, i can only say that the Bible is the only Word of God and none else. and for these same reason, i worry for you and other believers in Christ within LDS.
i pray that we all will grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus everyday. my prayer for you and for all of us is in 2 Peter 1.5-9 to add to our faith goodness, and to goodness knowledge among other things. the end result is to keep us from being ineffective and unproductive in our knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
i’ll end with these two questions for you:
1) how would the book of Mormon help you in building up your knowledge in the Son of God and become mature, in building you up so that we can reach maturity together in the faith, the end of which is to attain the whole measure of the fullness of Christ?
2) if the Bible which we know in 2 Timothy 3:.16 is God-breathed, or in other words, the word of God, how can any other books “weigh” more than it?
in love and as a fellow believer in Jesus.
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April 29, 2010 at 3:04 pm
ama49
Hi Raymund,
I can see we have significant differences in how we view things and I’ve had many discussions with fellow believers in other Christian denomonations including friends and close family members. The discussion of differences always goes back and forth. You can share with me why you believe the Bible is the only word of God and I can come back and share why I believe it isn’t but in the end it doesn’t lead to anywhere productive.
One thing though that we can both find common ground on, which I think is more important, is that we can pray to God, He answers our prayers through the Holy Spirit and leads us in our lives when we trust in Him. There are, of course many other doctrines in the gospel of Jesus, but the doctrine of prayer and being led by the Lord is something the world is in desparate need of. Rather than worrying about each other and the minor differences in our beliefs, I would encourage us to unite and turn our hearts to God and have Him lead us to people who haven’t found God at all. The more we open our hearts to Him, the more he reveals to us and leads us. Too many people don’t know this, or have forgotten.
Thanks for taking time to share your faith. You are welcome to do so at any time as I can tell you are genuine in your belief in Jesus Christ and His gospel.
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May 1, 2010 at 2:42 pm
raymund
hi ama49.
I have been reading a lot about Mormons and Mormonism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism) and i can see that there have been a lot of things happening within it. Perhaps to further know you, i would like to ask you, ama49, which group of mormons do you belong to? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint_movement). And also, what are your beliefs and practices, and what are the beliefs and practices of the specific mormon group that you follow? What doctrines do you follow? In the Wikipedia reference, it says that mormons practice polygamy and that “The church also may excommunicate or discipline those within the church who openly oppose the church’s top leadership, which is viewed as a sign of apostasy”. These are some of the things i read and would like you to give clarification on. I’d appreciate it if you can list, as much as you can, all your beliefs and practices for my benefit and understanding.
Regarding what you said, “Rather than worrying about each other and the minor differences in our beliefs, I would encourage us to unite and turn our hearts to God and have Him lead us to people who haven’t found God at all. The more we open our hearts to Him, the more he reveals to us and leads us. Too many people don’t know this, or have forgotten”, i would worry about fellow believers as said in Hebrews 10.24,25; 1 John 1.3; Ephesians 4.12, 29; Galatians 6.2-10; John 13.34. and yes, i agree that we should continually look for opportunities and spread the word of God to all peoples. But this is the thing that i ponder deeply and am deeply saddened: Paul says in Philippians 1.15-18 that during his time, some preach Christ out of different motives but he still rejoices because in every way Christ is preached. In our modern context, yes i rejoice in the same way, that Christ is preached by all christian denominations – roman catholics, protestants, presbiyterians, and others, and in my opinion, even Latter Day Saints and Mormons. the thing for which i am saddened is that when an unsaved person is led to Christ and believes in Him, that person would most likely (most of the time but not always) follow the teachings and practices of that group, some of which practices are contrary to what Jesus has taught, examples of which are the practice of confession to priests (in roman catholics) for the forgiveness of sins, giving of alms for atonement or lessening of sins, baptism by water as a prerequisite to salvation, the practice of polygamy as opposed to Jesus’ teaching, and many other beliefs and practices that would lead one away from God and Jesus. If a person who is a new believer in Christ is led into believing and doing false teachings and practices, will God be glorified (2 Peter 2.1-2)? No. Will that build up the new believer towards unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure and fullness of Christ? No. It is important then, that these differences in beliefs and practices be settled so that we who call ourselves christians would not mislead the unsaved as well as new believers into false teachings and false practices, becoming stumbling blocks for them and so causing them to sin, which does not bring glory to God at all. what then should be our basis for our beliefs with regards to faith and our basis with regards to how we should live our lives here on earth? what other laws or beliefs are greater than what God has already said in the Bible, that is, His commands and teachings?
Regarding what you said “You can share with me why you believe the Bible is the only word of God and I can come back and share why I believe it isn’t but in the end it doesn’t lead to anywhere productive”, please give your thoughts and share to me why you believe that the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel 1&2, Kings 1&2, Chronicles 1&2, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Corinthians 1&2, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians 1&2, Timothy 1&2, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James Peter 1&2, John 1,2&3, Jude, Revelations) is not the only word of God. it’s the first time in a long while that i’ve heard of a new idea and this is new for me and am genuinely interested in your reasons why you say there are other recorded words of God besides the Bible. for myself, i accept that the 66 books of the Bible is God’s Word and is complete.
to clarify what i said, let me give an example. the bible of the Roman catholic church and other orthodox churches is not only made up of 66 books (as mentioned in the paragraph above), but also includes a few of a collection of books called the Apocrypha (which are Esdras 1&2, Tobit, Judith, Rest of Esther, Wisdom, Sirach also called Ecclesiasticus, Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy, Song of the Three Children, Story of Susanna, The Idol Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasses, Maccabees 1&2) as part of the old testament (complete list of apocryphal books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Old_Testament_pseudepigrapha). The Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches include the following books as part of the bible: 3 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151. some other Eastern Orthodox Churches include 2 Esdras. These apocryphal books, however, are not considered to be God’s inspired word and is therefore not part of the Hebrew Bible (Hebrew Bible reference- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible). other references i found that say why the apocryphal books are not considered God’s word are – http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm and http://www.xenos.org/essays/canon.htm. Besides, i find it strange that although the Jews wrote the apocryphal books, they themselves do not consider it to be God’s inspired word. Based on these evidences, i conclude that the apocryphal books are not God’s inspired word.
As for the books which comprise the new testament, other gospels were coming out during the time of Paul and Jesus’ apostles, other gospels and writings that were contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus, as shown in Jude verse 4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”. there was a need during the first few centuries following Jesus’ death and resurrection what was divinely inspired from what was false. The canonization resulting in the books of the new testament was a long process beginning from around 140 AD to 367 AD (reference- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Canonization). Although some of the books in the new testament were stilled being questioned as to their being God’s divinely inspired word as late as the 16th century, all 27 books are intact and widely accepted as God’s word (i use the term “widely accepted” for lack of any other appropriate words).
your friend and brother in Christ.
as for the Book of Mormon, i have read a lot of online articles about how the Mormon book came into being. Perhaps one big difference i can see between the Bible and the Mormon book is that the places and physical things described in the Mormon book has no archaeological basis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephite). another is that, although the Bible is made up of books written by different authors from different time periods and so one would expect some inconsistencies with regards to teachings or beliefs, or one book contradicting another book but there isn’t, the Mormon book has inconsistencies when compared to the teachings of the Bible. besides that, the sole source of the book was one man whose name is Joseph Smith, Jr., who claims that the words he dictated which became the Book of Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_mormon) came from plates (which are reportedly actual physical objects) given by Moroni. there is no way then to verify if the words written in the Book of Mormon are really true or are really based on these supposed plates. Its authenticity whether the words in the Book of Mormon actually are the words as written in the plates cannot be checked. There is also no actual record of the plates ever existing in reality, except in affidavits by people who claim that they handled the plates physically (handled, not interpreted or read).
Again, i’d like to ask you to share what are your beliefs and practices, and what are the beliefs and practices of the specific mormon group that you follow. Share to me what doctrines you follow. I would like you to give clarification on my questions. I’d really appreciate it if you can list, as much as you can, all your beliefs and practices for my benefit and understanding.
I will also read the references you have given me (https://graceforgrace.com/2010/04/15/youre-a-rare-person-to-see-common-ground-between-lds-and-non-lds-chrisitans/
And here is another one: https://graceforgrace.com/2010/04/02/finally-a-christian-group-that-admits-lds-are-christians-too/) for me to understand your beliefs more. I will also read more of your Mormon book and investigate further for myself its teachings compared to the Bible, to show that i strive to be impartial in our discussion and really seek to know the truth in these things we are discussing, to help build each other up.
your friend and brother in Christ.
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May 2, 2010 at 4:12 am
ama49
Hi Raymund,
Wow! You’ve done some serious reading and I appreciate you trying to be open. I completely understand how it would be hard to relate to another person’s belief…I’ll do my best to answer your questions.
First off, you ask me which “brand” of Mormon I am. To be honest, I don’t like calling myself a “Mormon” because of all the assumptions that go along with it. I personally feel I am a seeker of truth. It just so happens that for me, the LDS faith has the most truth, in my opinion. I follow the main-stream LDS faith, which stemmed from Brigham Young after Joseph Smith died. This group is the largest branch of Mormonism with about 14,000 members worldwide (see http://www.lds.org).
As you have probably read, Mormonism (mainstream) has evolved over time and currently it does not practice polygamy. I personally do not believe in polygamy and feel that Joseph Smith was misled in that “doctrine”. You are right in that it is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus and in my opinion, this practice of polygamy is what got Joseph Smith killed.
You ask why another book would be necessary and also bring up issues of whether baptism is required for salvation along with other things. These questions that you ask are exactly the reason why another book was necessary. You share many quotes from the Bible on why you feel baptism isn’t necessary, but there are also many verses in the Bible that talk about the necessity of baptism.
If you read the history of Joseph Smith (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1) you will see that he had many questions and attended many churches trying to find God’s will and find which church was the true church of Jesus Christ. One of the verses that you previously mentioned (James) is one that was very important to Joseph Smith and that was to pray to God if you lack wisdom and He’ll answer you. Joseph Smith did pray and God appeared to him, instructing him that none of the churches had the fulness of the gospel.
In my opinion, praying to God for answers and guidance is the essence of Mormonism. That’s how it all started…with a prayer to God. If you closely read the Book of Mormon and compare it with the Bible, the Book of Mormon helps clarify contradictions that you find within the bible such as the necessity for baptism (see http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/b/22).
While you are reading and comparing, I encourage you to do the same thing that Joseph Smith did, and pray to God to lead you and direct you in truth. The reason why I believe in the Book of Mormon and the Bible is because God has answered my prayers and I can’t deny when I feel God speak truth to my heart. If you read with a sincere desire and real intent, God will show you as he has with the Bible, that the Book of Mormon is true.
I know Christians…actually quite a few, you believe in the Book of Mormon. I actually have another article I wrote a couple years ago about a baptist preacher who believes in the Book of Mormon (https://graceforgrace.com/2008/06/06/baptist-preacher-believes-in-book-of-mormon/).
Finally, you ask me to share what doctrines I follow. I’ll outline what I believe for you.
I believe in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I believe that if we pray in faith to God that He will lead and direct us through his Spirit. I believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and that I can repent for my sins and he has paid the price for my sins and also my suffering. I believe the He can lift me up in trials and through life.
I believe that we are created in the image of God and that we are all His creations. You may read that Mormons believe in a pre-mortal life and that we are all brothers and sisters with Jesus being our brother. For me, I don’t see how that is possible if Jesus was a God who helped create the earth. I believe Jesus is more than a spirit brother to us, but he is a God. I believe in faith, repentance, and baptism and also the Gift of the Holy Ghost as being necessary to enter the kingdom of God and be saved.
I believe that people of other faiths who may not believe in Jesus will still have a chance to hear the message of Jesus either in this life or the next and that God is just and fair in his judgements. I believe that God answers prayers and watches over people of all faiths and that all of us lack faith to a certain degree and our meager attempts at it, God recognizes and blesses those who are actively seeking. I believe that after this life we can be kings and queens to God with our husband or wife. I do not know exactly what that means. You may read how Mormons believe they will be Gods and have many spirit children like our Heavenly Father does. I personally do not know about that, but I do see how we can be servants to God like being priests or kings/queens and serve Him.
I believe that God can heal us from pain, sickness, suffering both mentally, physically, and most importantly, spiritually. I know that when I seek Him, he draws near to me and leads me in my life and that others can do the same thing. I believe that God opperates with certain laws and if we follow the commandments, he will bless us. I believe one of the laws is the law of tithing and that we should give at least 10% of our income to tithing to build God’s kingdom.
I believe most of the articles of faith that Joseph Smith wrote. It’s kind of like the Mormon version of a creed. You can view it online here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1.
I’m sure I could think of more things but off the top of my head, this is what I believe.
I hope this response helps you out in your search to learn more about Mormons. If you talk with another Mormon, they may believe some things a bit different than me, but for the most part it should be what most LDS believe.
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May 15, 2010 at 9:15 am
raymund
Hi ama49.
Sorry that it took me a while to continue our discussion. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and researching and i am indeed learning a lot of things about Mormons and about the Latter Day Saints as differentiated from Mormons. i want to make sure that i have all the facts, or as much of it as i possibly could get, to be able to say the following things as impartially as possible.
Before i start, i would like to share what i found out from the many posts (or is the right term “blog”?) or topics that i have read within the “grace for grace” main internet address. Firstly, I can see that you are involved in a lot of discussions about different topics (“baptist-preacher-believes-in-book-of-mormon”; “You’re a Rare Person to see Common Ground between LDS and non-LDS Chrisitans”; “finally-a-christian-group-that-admits-lds-are-christians-too/”; and other related topics) with a lot of people
Secondly, i can see that different opinions and/or beliefs are being shared by different people who belong to different church groups such as Baptists, 7th day Adventists, even one from the Reformed Church if i’m not mistaken. Different opinions about different topics are being are flying in left and right, and any other person not involved in the discussions but by accident reads these discussion (let’s call them “outsiders”) can easily get swayed by one opinion or another.
Now to discuss what i learned from my research:
a) regarding the history of Mainstream Mormonism (as differentiated from Mormonism prior to 2010) (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism)
1) Joseph Smith founded the Mormonism movement.
2) Historically, the LDS movement came about when Brigham Young reorganized a new First Presidency within the Mormonism movement in 1847. Brigham Young led the Mormonism movement for three years after Joseph Smith’s death.
3) The present 2010, or current, Latter Day Saints (or LDS movement which i refer to moving forward, to distinguish the LDS as it is known today compared to previous years) is a group or movement which is different from the Mormon Fundamentalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism).
4) The current LDS movement still follow the teachings within the Mormonism belief, although a few were “either abandoned, repudiated, or put in abeyance”. This was done “in large part due to the desire of its [LDS movement’s] leadership and members to assimilate into mainstream American society and avoid the persecutions and conflict that had characterized the church throughout its early years. Others believe that it was a necessity at some point for “a restoration of all things” to be a truly restored Church.”
To know more about Brigham Young and his beliefs and practices, please look in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_young as a starting point.
b) regarding the articles of faith of the LDS movement, i completely agree and share your beliefs with on articles 1, 12, and 13. With the rest of the articles, i need clarification before either agreeing or rejecting them.
c) regarding your (ama49) beliefs, i completely agree and share with you in your beliefs the following, specifically, to quote:
“I believe in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
I believe that if we pray in faith to God that He will lead and direct us through his Spirit.
I believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and that I can repent for my sins and he has paid the price for my sins and also my suffering.
I believe the He can lift me up in trials and through life.
I believe that we are created in the image of God and that we are all His creations.
I believe in faith, repentance, …, and also the Gift of the Holy Ghost as being necessary to enter the kingdom of God and be saved.
God is just and fair in his judgements.
God recognizes and blesses those who are actively seeking.
I believe that God can heal us from pain, sickness, suffering both mentally, physically, and most importantly, spiritually.
I know that when I seek Him, he draws near to me and leads me in my life and that others can do the same thing. ”
d) regarding the Book of Mormon. I have not completely read all of it but i have read some of its books and chapters. I have read many verses and passages that are similar to what is written in the Bible, that is, the meaning is the same but rephrased in another way. In terms of history, an example is 1 Nephi 5.15 which speaks about Israelites being led out of Egypt when they first lived there during the time of Joseph and his brothers and father, Jacob (book of Exodus). Another is 1 Nephi 11 where it speaks about where Mary is from and that Mary would give birth to Jesus, same as told in the book of look. In terms of doctrine, one example is Moroni 7.5 which is similar to Matthew 7.18, talking about good fruit from good trees and bad fruit from bad trees (meaning good work acceptable to God can come only from those who belong to God).
However, there are also a number of differences between what is said in the Book of Mormon and what is said in the Bible, things that are contradictory. I guess one good example is about the baptism as spoken in the Book of Mormon and as spoken in the Bible.
Speaking for myself, i have compared the origins of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I have only read some of the books and chapters in the Book of Mormon and i have also only read some of the books in the Bible. in the course of my research and what i have read and after reading the opinions of different groups of people from different denominations, i have to admit to myself that i can only believe in one as being God’s word. i either believe one or the other as being the true, divine word of God.
I claim that the Bible is the true, divine, inspired word of God and i am not ashamed of it or of my belief concerning this, that every single word in the Bible was spoken by God and comes from God, written only by men. To be perfectly clear about this, i make an analogy. If God is physically present right now on earth and standing alone in the front lawn of the White House in America, and He works up saliva in His mouth and spits on the ground, we as witnesses can say that the spit that just fell on the ground came from God alone and from no other person. In the same way, every word in the Bible came from God and is only written by men. God is the author of the Bible and not man.
i claim that the Book of Mormon itself is not the inspired word of God. Although i admit that some of the verses written in the Book of Mormon are either copied from or paraphrased from the Bible or that some of the verses have the same themes and principles as the verses written in the Bible (a good example is Moroni 7.5 which is similar to Matthew 7.18 in theme and subject), taken as a whole book, it is not the word of God and God is not the author of the Book of Mormon. For those who read it, it can be used as a reference when studying the Bible; but whenever passages in the Book of Mormon conflict with the Bible, what is written in the Bible should taken as true and correct over what is written in the Book of Mormon. Personally, i don’t see anything wrong with reading any other book if these other books would help a person to further build up his faith and knowledge of God. But if these other books or parts of these books contradict what is written in the Bible, if these other books do not build up one’s faith and knowledge of God, if these other books cause a person to sin or lead one away from God, then i put to the question the origin of these books whether they truly come from God.
e) regarding people who are members of the LDS movement if they are Christians or not. I sincerely believe that within the LDS movement, there are some who are truly Christians, who really belong to God and can be called by God Himself as one of His sons. I also sincerely believe that within other denominations, within orthodox or unorthodox churches, within the Roman Catholic church, within Baptists, within Presybterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and in all other denominations, i believe that some within these that are truly Christians, who truly seek the Lord and love and obey Him.
Someone might ask, “then how come we have different denominations and we have and follow certain beliefs that are same with some denominations but different with others?” let God speak for Himself in His word in James 4.1-3! Different peoples throughout human history, during different periods in the past, have used the Bible, have added to it, subtracted from it, have taken passages out of context from it, to suit these peoples’ personal desires, wants, greeds, lusts apart from God. People have done this very thing to gain power, to gain money, to gain human pleasures, to impose their will over others. People have distortedly used the Bible to gain political power, they have bent the teachings of the Bible to bend to vox populi, or as a convenience for themselves to become popular or to avoid becoming unpopular, or as a response to political suppression. But thanks be to God when He said in Luke 21.33 that His words will never pass away! His word the Bible is still with us, intact, not missing in anything.
I told you before that i was raised a Baptist. The more important question now is, do i consider myself to be a Baptist? I tell you the truth, i consider myself a Baptist (within the baptist church i attend and as a worldwide denomination) only because i see clearly that everything they teach and everything they practice and believe in is based on God’s word the Bible. if i ever hear just one thing from their teachings or see one thing from their practices that does not conform to the Bible, i will question them on this and see if it’s true or false compared to what the Bible says.
For you ama49, i encourage you to get to the bottom of all these things that we have discussed. Decide for yourself if the Bible is the only true word of God, or if the Book of Mormon is. I am not discouraging you from reading the Book of Mormon as i have said previously. Perhaps God would use it to fully show Himself to you, that the Bible is His only true word and none else. I believe that this is an important decision for every person who claims to follow Jesus and believe in God as a step in further knowing God and further growing in grace and knowledge of God. We should only have one guide book, one measuring stick where we base our beliefs, our practices, how we conduct ourselves in our daily lives and in front of others. Because we represent the Lord Jesus in front of unbelievers, we who truly believe and call on the name of God. As Jesus said, He is the only vine and no one else. He is the only foundation or the cornerstone of our faith and no one else. And that exactly means believing only in His words and no one else’s. Some of His words are paraphrased and rephrased in the Book of Mormon and you can use the Book of Mormon as a reference in studying the Bible, although i would discourage it because the Book of Mormon contains other teachings different from the Bible. But between the Book of Mormon as a whole and the Bible as a whole, which one do you believe as the true word of God? There can only be one true perfect word of God. If i accept both books as the perfect words of God, then i might as well reject both of them since they contain passages and teachings contradictory to each other.
So again, i encourage you, ama49, to study for yourself if the Bible or the Book of Mormon is God’s true, perfect word. For just a few days, remove your thoughts and thinking from the LDS movement and from the Baptist movement and from Luther, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, and any other movements or denominations and find out for yourself which is God’s true word. God gave us our own brains and minds to use for us to be capable to research and find out on our own. Afterwards, if you still believe that Bible is not or is not the only word of God, it doesn’t matter to me in that perhaps, God would make known to you in another time the truth of this. i pray that you and other true Christians within LDS would one day realize that the Bible is God’s only word and none else. I consider you my brother and a fellow servant in Christ.
If you have questions regarding the Bible and the teachings in it, ask and i will try my best to answer your questions as God leads both you and i.
Raymund
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May 16, 2010 at 5:24 pm
ama49
Hi Raymund,
Thanks for stopping by again and for your feedback. I think it’s great you’ve done considerable research.
I’ve completely read the Bible and Book of Mormon cover to cover. I believe they’re both inspired by God. God has witnessed it to my heart for both books. I appreciate your concern for me to consider the Bible as the only word of God, but I’ve already considered that and more importantly, God as confirmed it to me that it is the word of God so I see no need to go back and question Him again on the matter.
You mentioned many things we have common ground on. Let’s focus on those things. When you talk with others about the LDS faith, you can now show how much common ground there is. I think many people aren’t even open to considering where to find common ground. You can help with this.
Feel free to stop by anytime and share your thoughts.
God bless!
ama
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May 29, 2010 at 3:37 am
raymund
hi ama49.
thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts in this forum and thanks for posting them.
regarding the Bible as the inspired word of God, it does not depend on man’s belief whether it is or it is not the word of God. the Bible simply is God’s word, all 66 books. the Holy Spirit also testifies to this fact. this fact is stated in the Bible. this fact did not come from men, but from God Himself.
the Bible does not mention about the Book of Mormon. the Book of Mormon was written by men to whom Joseph Smith dictated. Joseph Smith claimed that an angel had given him a book of golden plates engraved with a religious chronicle of ancient American peoples in an unknown language. He also said he had received a pair of divining stones in which he could see the translation, which he published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon. the source of the Mormon Book (an angel named Moroni) is questionable as coming from God. doesn’t it say in the Bible that the devil himself masquerades as an angel of light? that’s why the Bible says to test the spirits whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
i say this so that your faith may be whole and united in Christ. not only you but also the true believers in Christ within LDS and within all denominations who call themselves Christians. if you consider me a brother in Jesus, then test what i say if they are true or not. if there are doctrines or teachings in the Book of Mormon contrary to the Bible, test them if they are from God or not. if the Bible and the Mormon Book both come from God, then the teachings in one should not disagree or conflict with the other. For how can God contradict Himself? if He does, how then can His kingdom stand? i have found verses in the Mormon book which are taken from the Bible. however, i have found also verses in the Mormon Book contrary to the Bible. for this reason, i reject the Mormon Book as coming from God. people who study the Bible may perhaps use the Mormon Book as a reference, but this should be done by people who are mature in God’s word (Bible) and it should be done with caution because the Mormon Book both contain truths based on the Bible as well as contradictions to the teachings in the Bible. what would you call a book that has both truths and contradictions?
by this do you think i am judging you or other LDS? no, i do not. the Bible says it is not up to us to judge others, or to judge someone else’s servant. do we not both claim to serve the same God and Savior? on the contrary, i thank God that even if you and the LDS believe in other books besides the Bible, God is still preached to unsaved people, and so i hope that those people who are called by God and hear of Him would be justified by God and be saved through His Son and be reconciled with God.
does this mean then that i espouse the Book of Mormon in teaching God’s truths to those who are still lost? no, i do not. i would rather that you only teach God’s truths through the Bible only.
if you consider me a brother in Christ, carefully study what i am saying. would you accept all of it? do all of what i say come from my own opinion? or are they all based from the Bible?
if Christians and LDS have will have common ground, that ground should be founded in God and His teachings, with His Son Jesus as the cornersone. otherwise, everything we build on that ground would just be destroyed when it is shaken.
i leave with the text found in Romans 1.16-17.
Grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.
raymund 🙂
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June 2, 2010 at 4:51 am
ama49
Hi Raymund,
You said “if Christians and LDS have will have common ground, that ground should be founded in God and His teachings, with His Son Jesus as the cornersone. otherwise, everything we build on that ground would just be destroyed when it is shaken.”
Amen to that comment! There is nothing more to discuss or say after that. Christians of all denomonations whether they be LDS, Baptist, non-denomonational, Catholic, etc. need to follow your advice and when we all follow that advice we’re united.
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November 29, 2010 at 4:05 pm
raymund
Hi ama49.
it’s been a while since we last spoke. how are you doing? and how is faith in Jesus? i hope all is well and that are you maturing and growing more in more in knowledge of Jesus and faith and love in Him.
i found a website discussing the subject of mormonism and other things about LDS (http://carm.org/mormonism). my prayer in this is for you to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus. i don’t want you to blindly believe what is said in the website. my hope is that you would read and research carefully what is said. my prayer is for you to open your minds eyes and not reject outright what is said. finally, i hope have that you would have the courage to examine, not radically change, your own beliefs in light of what was said and have the courage to follow the truth in it.
just to share with you, this was exactly the same thing i went through during the past couple of days. i was trying to research on the internet about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and the doctrine of the Trinity. and man! i can tell you right now that i’ve done some serious thinking! i was reading a forum about the holy Spirit not being God or a person of the Trinity, but rather, He was describe as just being a breath or a rush of wind or power from God the Father. this is the same as saying that there is no Trinity but that there is only one God and Jesus is just a creation of the one God or that the one God changed in person from being the Father, to being the Son of God, and then on to being the holy Spirit. it’s a different concept/belief of what i grew up with and what i know to be true, being a baptist. i thought to myself if the baptist teachings are actually false and what this guy was syaing in the forum was actually true. i did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions. thanks to the Lord God whom i have come to believe in ever since i was young, my faith is stronger in Him. i believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, that there is only one God and that He is also God the Father , God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – 3 distinct persons of the Godhead but these three are one God.
i hope you would have the same experience, that you would be led by the holy Spirit to discern what is true and what is false. and just as God promised in the bible in Philippians 4.13, that you would have the strength and courage to follow the truth that is written in the bible.
For God’s glory!
raymund
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February 11, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Julia
Ama49,
Can you please clarify the following statement you made:
“I personally do not believe in polygamy and feel that Joseph Smith was misled in that “doctrine”. You are right in that it is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus and in my opinion, this practice of polygamy is what got Joseph Smith killed.”
I was very shocked to read this as I’ve never heard of an active, temple-worthy LDS member with this opinion. But I don’t know a lot of people. 🙂 I’m interested in your thoughts about it.
Please don’t take my asking as aggressive, I’m just curious. Since this is an old post you can email me if you want.
Thanks!
Julia
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February 13, 2011 at 6:00 am
ama49
Hi Julia,
Thanks for stopping by and for your question.
The church doesn’t talk about this and I think you’re right to say that many active members haven’t said what I stated…primarily because they probably don’t know. Other people who do find out become appaulled and their testimoy is shaken to think of Joseph Smith in this way.
What I am referring to is Joseph Smith marrying people who were already married, dressing up and secretly marrying young teenage girls, etc. This was not discussed openly in the day and people who were close to Joseph Smith tried to expose him of doing these things in secret. I feel that it could have been handled much better than rallying up people to take the prophet in and especially kill him, but had he not been participating in polygamy undercover many people who ended up going against him would not have done so, I don’t think.
What do you think?
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March 2, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Richard W. Brady
It is good that you are concerned about believing in Jesus Christ. Believing that Jesus Christ exists will not get you to Heaven. James 2:19 is proof of that. So, if simply believing in Christ is not enough, what actually guarantees that you will get through the gate to Heaven?
Don’t you believe what the scriptures say? When Christ was walking around on this earth and when He was nailed to the tree (cross), the people who were present believed in him didn’t they? Of course they did. They looked right at him. They did not have to use faith of any kind. All they had to do was to look at him. Seeing is believing, right?
Did they who saw him before, during and after Jesus was nailed to the tree receive salvation? After all they believed in him. They could not deny that he was real. Of course not! Simply believing will do nothing.
Seeing or believing will not get you into Heaven. Trusting in Jesus and Jesus alone is the way to salvation. If a person trusts Jesus and Jesus alone for their salvation He will save them from their sins. It isn’t whether they believe he is real or not.
To go one step further, even if you do believe that Jesus is capable of saving you from your sins, and you trust Him to do it, but you also trust something else to help out, you will not enter Heaven. Only Jesus Christ can save, nothing or no one else.
So, if you are trusting Jesus Christ to save you but you are also trusting in your religion, or your good works, or your own righteousness or anything else, you will spend eternity in Hell. Only Jesus Christ saves. Trusting in anything else is saying to God, that Jesus Christ is NOT able to save us but He needs help from something or someone else. That His work and sacrifice on Calvary was not enough. Trust me and trust the Word of God, If you believe Jesus can not save you by Himself for any reason, you better have the best time you can while you are here on this earth, because you will NOT be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, and anyone who’s name is not found in this book will not enter Heaven. See the 20th Chapter of Revelation.
Here is a formula that is good to remember regarding salvation.
Jesus Christ + anything = HELL
Jesus Christ + nothing = HEAVEN
You see, there was no one else up there with Him. He died and shed His blood alone for you and me.
There was two of us nailed next to Him. One is in Heaven today, the other is in Hell today. Both saw Him, but only one trusted Him to save him from his sins. The other one did not believe that.
Jesus Christ already has done it all. All you have to do is the following:
1. Realize and confess to God we are all sinners
2. Realize that no sinner or any sin will ever enter God’s perfect Heaven.
3. Realize we then need a Savior to save us from our sins because we realize that as sinners we can not save ourselves from our sins.
4. Trust Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone to save us from our sins. Ask Him to do that for you.
5. Realize that we are not saved by good works but unto good works. That is, good works will not save us, but after Jesus Christ saves us He wants us to commit our lives to good works.
6. Realize that there is no magic formula. Only Jesus Christ.
7. Realize that once you have sincerely confessed your sins and asked Jesus Christ to save you from your sins, you are saved forever, regardless of what occurs after that because you are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and He is the proof of your salvation. You have accepted His gift of salvation.
8. Realize, this is not rocket science. God has made it simple and easy for anyone to receive eternal salvation.
Here is a simple analogy. You get a letter that you have won a truck. You go to the truck dealership. You see the truck. You certainly believe in that truck don’t you? You can’t deny that the truck is real. You walk out of the dealership without the truck. Question? Is the truck yours? NO! of course not. So, what makes the truck yours? The truck becomes yours only after you have accepted it as your own. Only after you have signed the papers and received the keys is the truck yours.
That is exactly what happens when you accept what Jesus Christ did on Calvary for you. He has paid the price for your salvation with His blood and offers you the key to get into Heaven. That key is Jesus Himself. This is an open invitation and is available to everyone. BUT, we have to trust Him for it and accept the gift of salvation by faith.
Why man has to always try to make everything complicated is a mystery to me.
God bless you all. Come to Jesus today. Right now. The time is short. Don’t wait one more minute. You could die at any moment. Salvation is only offered to those who are still alive. After you die, that offer is taken off the table by God because free choice no longer exists. Don’t try to first clean up yourself and your life before going to God. That is impossible. You come to God now, and then He will clean you up Himself. Trust Him. Jesus Christ is your provision. Thee is no other provision. Lift up your heart to God and live.
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February 3, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Doc
I don’t know if anyone will even come on here and read my post it’s so far from when this was posted, but I read all these things from my brother posting on here to Raymund posting about one true word. I think it is good to understand that these are all opinions and they are based off of feelings, findings through readings, possible upbringings or traditions and the main thing to focus on and ask yourself is… Do I beleive in Christ? Is there really a Christ or not? If there is a Christ and our hearts are turned to him and our minds are pacified in him, we will act accordingly. Hence, by our works we shall be known, as was Christ. If we beleive in Christ then any sin gets caught up in the atonement. If someone tries to live after the Christ who walked with the apostles and truly strives to be like him, grace will cover that part of him that wasn’t perfect in this world. If there was a portion of beleif that wasn’t perfect in a man, who is to say it won’t be considered a sin and caught up in the atonement?
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August 16, 2013 at 7:58 am
Dave Paragas
My dear brothers and sisters,
In faith, I know that the Spirit of God is present in this page. I’ve read most of the comments, and they were graciously enriching – a delicious food for the soul. Thanks be to God! With that, I need not to disagree or agree with every word you all said, because I also think that our only concern here is salvation, which only pertains to what the Bible truly teaches.
Here’s what I can say about salvation, and I need not to quote anything from the Bible because the space here won’t be enough…
JESUS: 100%
MEN: 0%
How about the issue regarding LAW and GRACE? Anyone relating to Romans 6:14…pls?
Also relate to: Law demands, but Grace supplies.
To God be the glory!
Your brother in Christ,
Dave Paragas
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