I was looking up something from Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith that he gave in 1835 and I came across Jerry Stokes’ website. In his website he compares these lectures to the Word of Faith movement (which I’ve never heard of before) and says it is heretical. I will have to agree with him that many things stated in the Lectures on Faith are heretical to mainstream Christianity, which is a given for LDS theology. One of the things he points out as being heretical is the fact that Joseph Smith states that one of God’s main attributes is faith and that without faith He would cease to be God. This concept is found in Lecture 1 verses 13 – 17 and is quoted below:
13. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3 —
14. “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
15. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.
16. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute — for it is an attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist.
17. Who cannot see, that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power? And if the principle of power, it must be so in man as well as in the Deity? This is the testimony of all the sacred writers, and the lesson which they have been endeavouring to teach to man.
I can understand Mr Stokes’ concern coming from a Christian perspective. He may be appalled to hear that Jehovah, who created the world, would need faith. After all, the Greek meaning of the word faith is “conviction of religious truth or of God.” If Jehovah is all-powerful and all-knowing and He is the being who we worship, what need is there for Him to have faith in Himself? Furthermore, does this lesson God’s stature and is it blasphemous to say that God has faith just as man does?
I don’t think it is wrong to say God has faith. By definition, faith is “the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.” For example, we read in the first book of the Bible (Gen 1:1-2) that God created the heaven and earth and the earth was without form. The Hebrew definition of “without form” means “to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; fig. a worthless thing; adv. in vain” . Therefore, God hoped for and had faith in himself that the earth would be made and he created the beautiful world that we live in out of chaos (or nothing depending on your belief). This fits into the definition of faith that we just discussed.
Now, does saying this lessen God’s stature and elevate man’s in relation to God? Not at all. In fact, this proves the majesty of God and shows us our relationship to Him. We are humans and have seeds of divinity in that we have the power to have faith and create things, etc. But no one can create a world.
Now, I will admit that I disagree with Joseph Smith’s statement that God would “cease to exist” if He didn’t have faith. In the scriptures we read that God is never-changing and always exsisting. God would be God regardless of whether He created worlds or not.
Overall, I believe in Joseph Smith’s statements on faith and man’s relationship to God. I believe that man has great potential and that we are children of God and therefore have seeds of divinity within us.
What are your thoughts? Do you think God has faith and is it wrong to say that He has faith? Do you have any other examples from the scriptures where God or Jesus showed faith?
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August 11, 2008 at 6:21 pm
LDS Anarchist
I am writing a Faith of God series on this very topic. I’m up to part 12 and currently working to complete part 13. You can read the parts here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.
Joseph Smith’s statement: “Take this principle or attribute — for it is an attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist” is true according to my understanding of faith. Read the (continuing) Faith of God series for more information as to why this is true.
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August 11, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Dan
Hey Aaron,
Very interesting post. Every now and then I come across a statement from a General Authority and say to myself, “That doesn’t mesh with my understanding of the gospel or of the scriptures. Typically, however, if I really make it a matter of research and prayer, I come to see where the General Authority was right. Sometimes that is due to my interpretation (context) being different than what the person intended.
I’m at work at the moment, so I don’t have my gospel library close at hand, but I would suggest grabbing a copy of The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and reading the King Follett discourse, including the footnotes. I think that there is a footnote in there by B.H. Roberts that goes in greater depth on some of what Joseph said about how God became God.
I’ll have to re-read it myself to make sure that I’m correct on this. I think that it might help explain how God is God because of our faith in Him.
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August 11, 2008 at 10:35 pm
LDS Anarchist
It’s been awhile since I’ve read the Lectures on Faith and as I look over them again now, some thoughts pop into my head.
I know you disagree with one thing that you quoted from the Lectures on Faith (which I addressed in the first comment which is most likely in your Spam queque as I included 12 links), but what of this quote:
Do you believe this? In other words, do you believe that prior to our creation, we didn’t exist? Or do you believe that we existed as chaotic “matter” and that Joseph’s use of the word refers only to existence as we are right now, meaning that we “existed” before in another form? I’m curious because if Joseph meant “no existence whatsoever” that would be creatio ex nihilo, would it not?
Notice that he says “no creation, nor existence!” This means he was distinguishing between simply organizing (or re-organizing) pre-existing matter (creation) and non-existence (nothing there.) What are your thoughts? Or, do you disagree with Joseph here, too?
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August 11, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Seth R.
Didn’t Sidney Rigdon write much of the Lectures on Faith?
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August 12, 2008 at 4:59 am
Eric Zacharias
Faith cannot be an attribute or characteristic. Neither can faith. One can be faithful and hopeful; they cannot be faith or hope.
That said, lets’ think of what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13: “Now, these three remain, faith, hope and love…”
It is interesting that nowhere in the Bible is God called “faith” or that he is called “hope.” These are abstract qualities, aren’t they. And yet, God IS equated with the word “love.” John repeatedly says in his epistles that “God is love.”
That is interesting. Ama, you rightly question Smith’s claim that the universe would not exist without faith; but he would be accurate to say that the universe would not exist without God’s love.
Note also that the essence of our salvation is that we “are saved by grace, through faith: and that is not of yourselves–it is a gift…”
God loves the world, so he gives the gift of faith. God is the giver; we are the receiver. He does not need the “characteristic” or quality of faith, just as he does not need the “characteristic” or quality of hope. God’s love is such that he bestows his love (grace) so that faith happens; where there is faith, hope is born. Without faith (in God), there is no hope. And there is neither hope nor faith without God’s love.
At the same time, God is faithful; he is always ready to bestow faith. He will remain faithful, even though we be faithless; for if he were unfaithful, he would deny his very existence (2 Timothy 2:13).
And why is it? Because God is the giver and we are the receivers. God will always be unique in that he is God.
He will always be the source and the object of our love, just as we will always be the subject and the target of God’s love.
We only have the spark of the divine when the divine (God) makes his place within us. To suggest that we have the divine in us would be like saying wood has fire within it; it doesn’t until that energy is ignited.
Blessings in Christ,
Eric Zacharias
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August 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Best of the Week 5: Academic LDS : Mormon Metaphysics
[…] discussion of Lectures on Faith and whether God can have faith at Grace for […]
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August 13, 2008 at 5:56 am
ama49
#1 Anarchist,
Thanks for the links! I’ll visit them
#3,
Regarding your question, I believe personally that we existed before coming here in some form or another. In the Bible it says God breaths the breath (in Hebrew this means Spirit) of life into man. I believe this to mean that God put our spirit into our bodies and that we exsited before coming to earth.
What are your thoughts?
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August 13, 2008 at 5:58 am
ama49
#5, Eric
I agree with your thoughts.
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August 13, 2008 at 5:59 am
ama49
#4 Seth,
I’m not sure what role Rigdon played with the Lectures on Faith…
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August 13, 2008 at 6:01 am
ama49
#2 Dan,
Thanks for your thoughts and sharing some advice as to what helps you. I’ve found that through prayer and scripture study the Spirit will usually confirm truth to me and in most cases it is in line with General Authorities as well.
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August 13, 2008 at 6:08 am
Response to Criticism of Joseph Smith's Lectures on Faith - LDS Mormon Forums
[…] Response to Criticism of Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith Response to Criticism of Joseph Smith’s “Lectures on Faith” Grace for Grace […]
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August 13, 2008 at 9:19 am
LDS Anarchist
I meant before the creation of our spirits. Before existing here as embodied spirits, we existed as unembodied spirits, created by God our Father. If Joseph, then, is saying that there can be “no creation, nor existence” without (God’s) faith, don’t you think that statement would apply to the creation of our spirit bodies, too? So, logically, if you take the words at face value and rewind the clock backwards, prior to the creation of our spirit bodies, did we not then exist? (This would be creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing or creation from non-existence.)
Put another way, Joseph is saying in that statement that it takes faith (the faith of God, not of man) in order for there to be creation (of things) and it also takes faith (God’s faith) in order for there to be existence (of things). So, prior to our creation, we were in an uncreated state, which, through God’s faith, brought us into a created state. And prior to our existence, we were in a non-existent state, which, though God’s faith, brought us into an existing state, or state of existence. Take away God’s faith, and God ceases to be God. Take away God, and all created things revert back to their previous uncreated states and all existing things revert back to their previous non-existing states, or as Lehi puts it, “all things must have vanished away (2 Ne. 2: 13).”
This smacks of creatio ex nihilo. So, my question to you is do you believe that Joseph was wrong on this point, too, or do you think that his words only applied to the creation of the physical realm and not the spiritual realm, thus saving the typical LDS view of creatio ex materia (creation from pre-existing matter)?
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August 13, 2008 at 9:25 am
Wanderer
God is faithful to His people is what my understanding would be..two way thing…we have faith in Him and He is faithful…thus a principle of power and action. Without it..we would cease to exist, this principle would cease to exist…God would still exist..but not for us as *our* God because we could not have faith or conviction of the truth of God.
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August 13, 2008 at 1:44 pm
ama49
#13 Wanderer,
Thanks for stopping by and I agree with you completely. God doesn’t cease to exist if there isn’t faith, but if we do not excersize faith in Him, he can do no miracle as seen numerous times throughout the scriptures and stated in Ether 12:12 in the Book of Mormon.
On the other hand, we see numerous times where people excersize faith even the size of a mustard seed and they see great miracles happen in their lives.
I don’t know if this is what Joseph Smith meant when he said “God would cease to exist,” but if it is what he meant, then I would have to agree with him because if we do not have faith in God, He does cease to exist for us and we’re left to our own devises.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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August 13, 2008 at 1:54 pm
ama49
#12 Anarchist
You said
“If Joseph, then, is saying that there can be “no creation, nor existence” without (God’s) faith, don’t you think that statement would apply to the creation of our spirit bodies, too? So, logically, if you take the words at face value and rewind the clock backwards, prior to the creation of our spirit bodies, did we not then exist? (This would be creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing or creation from non-existence.)”
I think this depends on your interpretation of the word “create.” When I looked it up in Hebrew it wasn’t clear to me whether this means to “organize” or to “create from nothing.”
If it means to organize then creatio ex nihilo doesn’t hold ground. If it doesn’t mean this, then ex materia needs to be more closely examined.
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August 14, 2008 at 7:55 am
LDS Anarchist
Saying “neither this nor that” makes a distinction between two things. Neither creation nor existence, or, as Joseph says, “no creation, nor existence.” So, Joseph is saying that without God’s faith there would be neither creation nor existence. Even if you say that the creation Joseph is referring to is creatio ex materia, or organization from pre-existing material, which is what I do believe he was referring to, when me mentions the second thing, existence, this must differ from organization. Both words cannot mean the same thing.
An organized thing (a created thing) exists. Prior to being organized (created), the material that comprised that thing existed in an unorganized or disorganized state. That is pretty clear cut. But the word existence poses “problems” as it must be distinguished from organization (creation). The opposite of organization is disorganization. The opposite of existence is nonexistence. If something is, it exists. If something isn’t, it doesn’t exist. It is the word “existence,” then, that smacks of creatio ex nihilo, because Joseph states in plain words that without God’s faith there would be no existence, therefore it is God’s faith that causes both creation and existence. This means that there was a point of creation and also a point of existence. Prior to that point (the point at which God’s faith was exercised) nothing was created and nothing existed. Nothing. As in before all things that do exist existed, nothing existed. A big, fat nothing.
The reading of the text indicates both creatio ex materia (creation or organization from pre-existing matter) and creatio ex nihilo (existence from nonexistence), does it not to you? I never caught that before. If Joseph both believed and taught this doctrine, do you think he was wrong?
Also, ama42 #12 said, “I don’t know if this is what Joseph Smith meant when he said “God would cease to exist,” but if it is what he meant, then I would have to agree with him because if we do not have faith in God, He does cease to exist for us and we’re left to our own devises.”
The text indicates that Joseph was talking about God’s faith, not the faith of men. He says, “Take [faith] from Deity and he would cease to exist.” He doesn’t say, “Take faith from man and God would cease to exist.” The text is plain that Joseph was talking about God’s faith and what would happen if God no longer possessed faith.
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March 25, 2009 at 2:26 am
Erick
There most certainly can be a thing such as “Faith”. It says God IS “Love” and we know that Love is an abstract concept. Faith as an abstract concept does not mean it does not exist in form. The bible literally says that “God is love” Joseph’s purpose by his statement was to merely illustrate a point. God necessarily has faith–it is in him, something he “has.” There is no way he could be God and not have faith, because it is something unequivocally tied to God; A fundemental principle of God. If it were not, then how can we have faith, and why are we called to have faith? We are called to be perfect, even as our heavenly fathers is perfect. God has perfect faith, and therefore it would not seem that he requires faith; he never has a lack of it. These may just be musings but I believe it it was Joseph meant by the statement. It was not meant to be taken literally. There is no way God could not have faith. His point is quite poignant actually.
Existence may mean that “living” things would cease to exist. Perhaps chaotic matter would exist, but living things would cease to exist, and there would be no spirit to perceive existence. Again, musings.
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March 27, 2009 at 3:30 am
ama49
Erick,
Very good comments and I agree with you. If God is perfect and if faith is an attribute of perfection, then God must have faith.
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July 21, 2013 at 10:58 am
Xiphias
If you read the lectures carefully you will notice that Joseph Smith equates faith with power and does not use the Greek definition you used. Hence it is only true and right to say that God has perfect faith, since he has all power.
It says several time in the Book of Mormon that God would cease to exist if he did this and that. (E.g. Alma 42:13) Of course, God has all power, but can he lie? Can he misguide his children? Mormons believe that if God did such a thing, he would cease to be God, and hence we can fully trust him in all matters.
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