“The concept of a restoration is biblical and is frequently spoken of in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Peter spoke of the anticipated ‘times of of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken of by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.’ (Acts 3:21). Latter-Day Saints understand this as a prophetic anticipation of a full and final restoration of the gospel in the development and fulfillment of the purposes of God in these last days.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism)
As a Latter-Day Saint, or Mormon, I believe this to mean that in the beginning, God revealed all truth to his prophets. Throughout time, His truths became corropted. Through divine revelations from God, Joseph Smith received a full restitution of all truths. It is my personal belief that elements of these truths can be found in virtualy every religion though.
It seems that the past few days I’ve had experiences causing me to reflect on the truths that can be found in other religions. I’ll share some of my experiences.
During a recent business meeting a colleague and I started talking religion. She knew I was LDS and I knew she was Christian. One thing that has baffled me about most Christians is the fact that it appears to me they limit the abilities of God to just communicating to one people through one book (the Bible). I told my friend in our conversation that I believe in the Bible and am grateful for the inspired book, but what I love about the Restored Gospel (the LDS faith) is that we believe in a God that is all-encompassing and who is the Father of all people and who loves us all equally. We believe that God has revealed more truth to us in addition to the Bible and that he can reveal more truth in the future to us should he choose. (see Article of Faith 9) To my suprise she agreed with me and called herself a “liberal christian” in that she believed that there is a lot of truth in the Bible as well as in other sources outside of the Bible and that God couldn’t and shouldn’t be limited to one book. It was a very refreshing conversation for me.
My wife is on a recruiting trip in the Middle East for business. She called me today and as she was describing the culture and the way the people would pray and how nice some of the people were she said “It’s amazing to see how many of the truths taught in Mormonism are found in other religions that aren’t even Christian.” I agreed with her.
Finally, I was reading an article posted on the Temple Study Blog about the “scattered fragments” of the ancient temple rites of the
Egyptians and how they correlate with those of the Jews and essentially with those taught in Mormon temples. I recommend reading the article for more specific information.
These three examples are ones of recent, but I’ve had experiences in the past with people from all faiths and even those without any religion who practice the principles of love, faith, charity, prayer, kindness, repentance, etc. All of which, are truths that are universal and come from God.
To answer the question “Does Mormonism Cover truths from all Religions?” I would personally have to say it does cover a good portion of truth, including truths found in other religions, but there is still more truth that will be revealed. Even if the religion is slightly warped or even largely warped it all stems from an original religion that Heavenly Father taught Adam. I’m grateful that Mormonism teaches that there is a way for those who don’t have a chance to hear about Jesus in this life to be saved; that God is all-loving and just and doesn’t limit Himself to answering and blessing the lives of all nations; that families and marriages are an eternal principle and not “til death do you part”; that Jesus is our personal Savior and the Savior of mankind; that God has revealed himself in the past and that he can and will continue to reveal himself in the future.
I don’t claim to be a religious expert, but I have experienced first hand Budhist and Daoist temples in Asia, the wide variety of Christian denominations throughout America and Europe, Jewish temples and people, Muslims, and even though some of the religions are pretty far from the actual truth, one can see a semblance of original truth that it came from.
So the questions I ask are: Do you agree with me that Mormonism covers truth from all Religions? If so, what other truths or concepts in other religions can you think of that Mormonism covers?
If you don’t think it covers all truth, why don’t you think it does?
(02-21-08) It’s about a week after I wrote this post, but I just read an interesting blog on how Muslim’s believe that there is part of a Book of Abraham that was lost and it could be similar to the Book of Abraham that Joseph Smith translated that is found in the Pearl of Great Price. Check out the post here: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/02/16/is-the-book-of-abraham-related-to-muslim-texts/
33 comments
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February 15, 2008 at 6:31 am
hesadanza
I believe that all truth comes from God. I don’t believe that the LDS Church has a monopoly on truth. We don’t believe we have all truth revealed either (AoF 9). I believe that some truth can be found in all the religions of the world. As I will explore on my blog (Temple Study), I believe that some truths of the gospel, particularly fragments of the temple ordinances, can be found in virtually every religion on the planet.
Brigham Young once stated:
Again he said:
February 15, 2008 at 6:33 am
hesadanza
Sorry, I forgot a closing blockquote tag there. This part was my own commentary:
“We believe in every truth. We seek for truth. We believe that all truth is circumscribed into one great whole of the gospel of Jesus Christ. When we find truth, we lay hold upon it, we take it up, we believe it, we teach it, we live it. It doesn’t matter the source; if it is truth, we accept it.”
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February 15, 2008 at 6:41 am
ama49
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you that we do not have all truths revealed to us yet and probably didn’t properly portray that in the post. I appreciate your clarification.
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February 15, 2008 at 5:24 pm
SmallAxe
ama,
I’m sympathetic to your position, but also find certain parts of it highly problematic (if I’m reading the initial post correctly).
One of the purposes of interacting with other religions/cultures should be because they can teach us something, and not to look for “parallels” that somehow demonstrate the truth we’ve already found. Studying the Egyptians or Muslims shouldn’t simply be about finding things in their system of beliefs that we already have. It should be about finding things we lack and adding it to what we have.
So I guess to answer your question, no I do not believe that Mormonism covers all truth, because there is much good in the world that we do not immediately recognize as “Mormonism”.
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February 15, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Dan
Joseph Smith didn’t even translate all of the Book of Mormon. Some of it remains sealed, and probably won’t be revealed until the Millenium. Why? I suspect that it has something to do with overwhelming people.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. I have a hard enough time getting all of my hometeaching done every month, preparing lessons for church, shuttling my children back and forth to church activities, being supportive of my wife and all that she does, attending the temple on a regular basis, etc.
It’s possible that as much as I want to be ready for all truth right now, I might not actually be ready for all truth right now, and a loving Father in Heaven understands that.
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February 16, 2008 at 1:24 am
ama49
Dan, what you said reminds me of what my bishop said in a priesthood meeting once. We were discussing various “deep doctrine” issues and he said to stop worrying about that. He said once we have a handle on loving God and our neighbors then we might be able to tackle the next thing.
I have a feeling that we as humans aren’t going to reach that goal in this life and therefore what you said about more truths being revealed in the Millenium may very well be true.
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February 16, 2008 at 1:28 am
ama49
Smallaxe,
I agree with you in the fact that looking at other cultures/religions definitely teach us something new from a new perspective. However, I believe that all truth stems from God and those truths found elsewhere could be traced back to an original origin, many of which (not yet all of which) are found in the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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February 16, 2008 at 5:18 am
seventyx7
Truth comes from GOD, (not a god) and since we were created by GOD and made in HIS image we have truth in us. All “religions” have truth in them, but they do not lead to salvation that comes from JESUS CHRIST alone. There is no such thing as new truths. GOD told us exactly what is truth in HIS one and only HOLY WORD, THE BIBLE. There is no such thing as a restored gospel. Archeology does not support Mormonism what so ever. Joseph Smith lied. Check out Josephlied.com
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February 16, 2008 at 7:00 am
ama49
Seventyx7,
I agree with you on the following statements:
“Truth comes from God.”
“We were created by God in his image”
“Salvation comes from Jesus Christ”
“There is no such thing as new truths”
I disagree with you on the following:
“His one and only Holy Word, The Bible”
I can’t accept that God is confined to one Book that has been through many revisions and books that have been added and taken away throughout the course of 2000 years. God is much bigger than that. Yes. The Bible has truth and it is the main book supporting Jesus Christ and his ministry, but I know that other books are just as true as the Bible because I feel the same confirmation of the spirit in the Bible as I do in the Book of Mormon and other books and words of prophets.
“Archeology does not support Mormonism”
What does this have to do with faith? But if you would like to look up archeology there are many books containing evidences of the Book of Mormon. (http://farms.byu.edu/publications/booksmain.php)
As for the Josephlied website I think that whoever is on there is trying to make some money off of “Joseph Lied” tshirts and “donations” to paypal. Wow! That site is about as absurd as the Godmakers film.
BUT, in empathy with their situation and why they left the LDS church, I can see how they could leave. the LDS church has a rocky history. I’m glad my faith isn’t based on the history of the LDS church or any other church for that matter.
You might be interested in one of my recent posts “Why to People Leave the LDS Church?”
https://graceforgrace.com/2008/02/04/why-do-people-leave-the-lds-church/
Thanks for your comments. You had some really good statements that I can agree with you on and some other ones that caused me to reflect on my faith.
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February 16, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Scottypancakes
ama49,
Ditto on your agreements/disagreements with Seventyx7. It is a dangerous and narrow-minded thing to put a cap on where truth comes from (i.e., God only has only revealed truth through a limited source).
That said, Mormons themselves have admittedly been slow to accept truth outside the churce, but they’re coming around. Hopefully evangelicals will to.
PS: Favorite quote from Josephlied.com: “Are You Illiterate?” HAHAHA!
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February 16, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Mormon Heretic
It is interesting to me that early church leaders would let people from other churches speak to the Mormons. This is no longer the case, but I know that (though I can’t cite it at the moment) some RLDS missionaries were invited by Brigham Young to speak in the SL Tabernacle. Such a thing would be heresy today.
I agree with Pres Hinckley’s comments, something to the effect of “bring your good truths, and let us add to it.” There are truths everywhere.
Seventyx7, truth is not limited to the Bible, but can be found in the Koran, the Apocrypha, Hindu, Buddhist, and many other religions. You are quite narrow-minded to be so limited. Are you saying God only loves Christians, and even more narrowly, just Christians who only believe in the Bible? And which Bible anyway? For the Catholic Bible is certainly different than the Protestant Bible (if one exists–with all the different translations out there, just which Bible are you referring to?) For heaven’s sake, Galileo found some truths not in the Bible and was prosecuted for it. Obviously, Galileo’s assertions were correct, but short-sighted people were scared of the implications.
Seventyx7, I don’t want this to sound like I’m attacking you, because, I don’t believe every thing about LDS church history, and we probably have more in common than you think. However, if you think all truth is in the Bible, then you should increase your knowledge, and not just spout political arguments. After all, with this campaign season, we get enough negative campaigning between Republicans and Democrats, that we don’t need it to spread to (hopefully) more thoughtful religious discussions.
Are you setting yourself up as a prophet or missionary to try to convince others that Mormons are evil, or at best unlearned in Christianity? Such a stance is truly condescending, and generally not appreciated. I doubt you would appreciate others speaking to you with the same tone.
Yes, I’m sure that Mormons have spoken to you condescendingly, but that doesn’t make it right. I think we should be past “eye for an eye” thinking by now if we consider ourselves good Christians. By your username, I would expect you to know the answer to Jesus question, “How many times should we forgive?”
You can catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, though vinegar makes an impact more quickly. Honey takes too much time…
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February 18, 2008 at 10:15 am
seventyx7
Grace for grace,
The Bible has been around for around 2,000 years (maybe not compiled yet, but the books and letters were there) There is a tremendous amount of evidence that we can look at for the Bible (5,600 documents within 100 years of the originals in existence for the NT and the Dead Sea Scrolls {+others} for the OT). Even secular historians and archaeologists agree that the Bible is as much a history book as a religious book because there is evidence for the places, people and events mentions in the Bible. Which cannot be said for the Book of Mormon. The Smithsonian does not recognize the BOM as anything more than a religious book. Archaeologists find no evidence for the places, people or events mentioned in the BOM. That includes many Mormon archaeologists.
You mentioned that you had a confirmation of the spirit that the BOM and other books were just as true as the BIBLE. I do not doubt that you did. But please keep this in mind:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” 1 COR 11:13-15
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” JER 17:9
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” PRO 30:5-6
“What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.” DEU 12:32
in HIS TRUTH-
seventyx7
PS “In a study of arthritis victims Dr. Angus Peters of University of Edinburgh’s Arthritis Research Institute found a daily dose of apple cider vinegar and honey reduced pains by 90%……………Patients, who took the additional apple cider vinegar and honey drink daily, were more vigorous, had fewer colds or infectious diseases and in general were healthier than those who didn’t. There’s no question that this astounding elixir can extend life by protecting you from many proved killers.” (http://rawfoodinfo.com/articles/art_cidervingarlichoney.html)
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February 18, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Mormon Heretic
Seventyx7,
So what are you saying, that there is no evidence of the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita or other religious texts? And do you believe the Catholic Bible, or the Protestant Bible, Mr. Honey and Vinegar? Ghandi was smart enough to learn some things from the Bible, perhaps you could learn something from his holy book as well….. Have you even studied any other books? (Or will that lead you off the straight and narrow path?)
Yes the Bible has been around for 2000 years, the BOM, less than 200. Do you think all this archaelogical evidence for the Bible was known 1800 years ago? After all, the first archaeologist was Constantine’s mom, and that was more than 300 years after the time of Christ. I doubt there was much evidence back in the time of Constantine.
By that argument, you must believe the world is still flat. After all, there was plenty of evidence (3500 years at least) that the world was flat. However, in the last what, 500 years, that theory has been proved false. Perhaps in another 1800 years, there will be more proof of the BOM.
P.S. I’m glad honey and vinegar works for arthritis. Did these patients also take a breath mint so that people could tolerate to be around them? (I’ll forward this link to my mom–she has arthritis.)
The original honey and vinegar message dealt with “how to win friends and influence people”, not arthritis. Does the honey and vinegar principle apply with your missionary work? After all, I think that was the original context of the message. But perhaps I’m quoting out of context… What do you think?
I know I’m sounding harsh, but perhaps you could open your mind to other ideas, or is that too threatening to you? In both the Bible, and the BOM, it says “Charity is the pure love of Christ.” Perhaps you could be more charitable with your criticisms…. (I’d be willing to bet that Confucius probably said something similar too. Would you reject that because it is not in your Holy Bible?) You might check my other comment about the Baptist who believes the Book of Mormon, yet remains a firmly committed Baptist.
P.P.S. I’m not disputing anything you are saying, as much as I am taking exception to your tone. You seem to have your own agenda. Could you comment on some of the world religions? Or are you saying they’re all bad and going to Hell? I don’t believe that. (Of course, I know that we have different concepts of Hell.) I think Ghandi exhibited better Christian principles than you or I, and I think God understands that better than you or I. Was he misled by his holy books, or did his simple reading of the New Testament save him?
Perhaps a breath mint might be in order…… (I’ll get one too.)
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February 19, 2008 at 1:39 am
Dawby
You guys going back and forth makes me laugh!
O.k. I have one question for Seventyx7.
How do you know the Bible is true?
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February 19, 2008 at 2:25 am
seventyx7
“Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” MATT 7:13-15
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
“And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all? Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.” Mark 12:28-30
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February 19, 2008 at 3:29 am
Mormon Heretic
Seventyx7, it was good talking past each other. Maybe we can actually communicate next time. 🙂 Since you like quotes so much, here’s a few.
“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” (or blog–parenthesis added.)
————-
Confucius answered one disciple’s question about the most essential quality a human being can have with a simple one-word answer: Forgiveness.
“Whatever attitude you adopt, you will receive the same quality of forgiveness from others you meet, and you will have a smooth life throughout.”
————–
From the Koran.
“Many of the People of the Book wish that they could turn you away as disbelievers… But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings his command.” (2:109).
————–
From the Book of Mormon
Mosiah 26:31: “And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses;”
3 Ne 11:22 “there shall be no disputations among you.”
————–
I really want to make a snide comment here, but I just took a breath mint….
Good luck Seventyx7, and may God bless you! I know your heart is in the right place, and I pray you can work on the method. May we all live Christ’s teachings better, and be the kind of Christians he wants us all to be.
“Let us oft speak kind words to each other….” (Hymn)
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February 19, 2008 at 5:52 am
Rick
Seventyx7, are you going to start these websites to save others?
Confuciuslied.com
Buddhalied.com
Mohammedlied.com
thepopelied.com
Lutherlied.com
JohnWesleylied.com
Calvinlied.com
thebaptistslied.com
thepresbyterianslied.com
themethodistslied.com
I think most of these domains are available, and you could probably make some good money. I’m sure I left out a few, but I think you get the idea. I think it would be better to start with the non-Christian ones first–there’s a bigger audience there. But if you want to do the Christians first because they read the bible, the Catholic one is pretty big too.
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February 19, 2008 at 6:06 am
ama49
Hey guys, cut Seventy some slack.
I am curious though, Seventy. You never did answer the question about how you know the Bible is true.
How do you know it’s true?
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February 19, 2008 at 7:14 am
seventyx7
Grace,
Sorry that I had not yet replied to the question, I had actually missed it.
First of all there are many prophecies about the Messiah (Yeshua/Jesus) that were prophecied in the OT and fulfilled in the NT (here are just a few):
Fulfilled Prophecy Tenakh/OT New Testament
His pre-existence Micah 5:2 John 1:1, 14
Born of the seed of a woman Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:18
Of the seed of Abraham Genesis 12:3 Matthew 1:1-16
Also, the Bible records scientific accuracy (Here are just a few):
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
IF that were not enough on a purely non-faith level, it is interesting to point out that the BIBLE was written over a span of 2,000 years, by many authors whom, did not encounter eac
All nations blessed Genesis 12:3 Matthew 8:5, 10
by Abraham’s seed
God would provide Genesis 22:8 John 1:29
Himself a Lamb as
an offering
From the tribe of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:1-3
Heir to the throne of David Isaiah 9:6-7 Matthew 1:1
Called “The mighty Isaiah 9:6 Matthew 1:23
God, The everlasting Father”
Born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18
His name called Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
Immanuel, “God with us”
Declared to be Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17
the Son of God
His messenger before Malachi 4:5-6 Luke 1:17
Him in spirit of Elijah
Preceded by a Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:7-11
messenger to prepare His way
Messenger crying Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:3
“Prepare ye the way of the Lord”
Would be a Deuteronomy 18:15 Matthew 2:15
Prophet of the children of Israel
Would be a Nazarene Judges 13:5; Matthew 2:23
Amos 2:11;
Lam. 4:7
Presented with gifts Psalm 72:10 Matthew 2:1, 11
Rejected by His own Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 21:42;
Mark 8:31, 12:10;
Luke 9:22, 17:25
He entered Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:5
Jerusalem as a king
riding on an ass
Betrayed by a friend Psalms 41:9 John 13:21
Sold for Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:15;
30 pieces of silver Luke 22:5
The 30 pieces of Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 27:9-10
silver given for the potter’s field
The 30 pieces of Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:5
silver thrown in the temple
Forsaken Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:56
by His disciples
Accused by Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:60
false witnesses
Silent to accusations Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:14
Heal Isaiah 35:5-6; Isaiah 29:18 Matthew 11:5
blind/deaf/lame/dumb
Came to Micah 7:6 Matthew 10:34-35
bring a sword, not peace
Spat upon, Isaiah 50:6, 53:5 Matthew 27:26, 30
smitten and scourged
Smitten on the cheek Micah 5:1 Matthew 27:30
Hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 Matthew 27:23
The sacrificial lamb Isaiah 53:5 John 1:29
Wounded for our sins Isaiah 53:5 John 6:51
Messiah not killed for Himself Daniel 9:26 Matthew 20:28
Crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:35
His body was pierced Zechariah 12:10; John 20:25, 27
Ps. 22:16
Thirsty during execution Psalm 22:16 John 19:28
Given vinegar Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
and gall for thirst
Soldiers gambled Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35
for his garment
People mocked, Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:43
“He trusted in God, let Him deliver him!”
People sat Psalm 22:17 Matthew 27:36
there looking at Him
Cried, “My God, my Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
God why hast thou forsaken me?”
No bones broken Psalm 34:20, John 19:33-36
Numbers 9:12
Side pierced Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
Buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57, 60
Resurrected Psalm 16:10-11; 49:15 Mark 16:6
from the dead
Also there are scientic accuracy that is recorded in the Bible, long before it was figured out that the earth was not flat:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
It is interesting to note that the Bible was written over a span of 2,000 years by many authors who did not know each other, yet each book contains the same message: The need for a Saviour, fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Now these are just non-faith things that are pointed out. I think the one thing that has been proved the Bible to be true over and over again, even here is:
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake…” Matt 10:22a
But Grace this is what I cling to:
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28
Grace, I respect you and know that you are just as commited to your faith in the LDS as I am to Jesus Christ. I am not here to judge you, but to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ and not the ideas of myself or of any man. I find it interesting that a man such as Joseph Smith would boast such a claim as:
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” History of the Church, volume 6, p 408 to 409
Grace, you are in my prayers, as well as the others. May the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob bring you to His Truth through His Son, Jesus Christ.
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February 19, 2008 at 7:32 am
seventyx7
I think the best website would be
HumansliehaveliedandcontinuetoliesoweshouldnotputourtrustinthembutratherourtrustintheLord.com
(Psalm 118:8 for the last part)
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February 19, 2008 at 7:49 am
ama49
Well Seventy,
it looks like you have a lot of scripture there. What would you say to an atheist though that didn’t believe in scripture? How do you know the bible is true even if you can prove it as a historic book, etc. How do you know?
In regards to Joseph Smith. That appears to be a pretty arrogant statement he said there and that is probably why it isn’t included in our scriptures. I personally don’t think every word that came out of his mouth was truth. He was a man just like we are and only when moved upon by the Spirit of prophecy was he acting as a prophet.
Also, thanks for your prayers. I appreciate you thinking of me.
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February 19, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Rick
Ok, AMA, I shouldn’t have piled on, and I agree with Seventyx7, many have lied, but why are you so focused on the mormons? After all, the other religions vastly outnumber the mormons, and yet you are only advertising the josephlied.com domain–seems kinda discriminatory to me. (This is an honest question.)
Why don’t you go after Islam who kills people in the name of Allah, or the Catholic Church who did the same with the Crusades? That seems like a more reasonable stance to me. Both of them are much larger in population–is the mormon church a much larger threat? Are you scared it will outgrow them both?
I just see too many similarities between your approach and the imams in Iran–tearing people apart, rather that Ghandi’s approach of bringing people together. Have you seen the movie Ghandi? He respected people of all faiths, whether or not they were Christian. I think Christ would be extremely disappointed in people who divide in his name.
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February 19, 2008 at 5:21 pm
ZeeZrom
Just to get in here. I don’t think there is any historical evidence of the bible being “true”. There is no accurate record of any “Jesus” outside of the bible. There are only 2 or 3 mentions by historians of the time of a “Christ”, and they’re vague, at best. If there was a Jesus who was so great, performing miracles and such, not to mention the 3 days of darkness, I would think there would have been numerous mentions by that era’s historians.
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February 20, 2008 at 1:55 am
seventyx7
Grace,
I cannot prove the Bible to be true, just as you can not prove that Mormonism is true to an athiest or anyone for that matter. The Holy Spirit is who stirs the hearts of those who have yet to believe.
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
1 Cor 2:10
I do know what the Scriptures tell us about those who do not believe in Go:
“The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ ” Psalm 14:1a
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:18-32
But if I were trying to prove God to an athiest, I would first point to nature.
“The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard. ” Psalm 19:1-3
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” Romans 1:20
In His Truth-
seventyx7
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February 20, 2008 at 3:21 pm
rick
Seventyx7,
I find it really interesting that you ignore my and Mormon Heretic’s questions. Are they just too hard to answer because you can’t quote a scripture to state why you are a Mormon bigot?
Sure, you may say that Mormons are going to Hell, and you want to rescue them. But it wasn’t Mormons who flew planes into the World Trade Center, or started the Crusades. Can you try to engage in the conversation, or are you simply programmed to mis-quote scripture?
What do you have to say about Jihad? Is Jihad worse than mormonism, or better? (We’re impressed that you know your bible, but please, enough of the scripture quoting–what do YOU think?)
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February 20, 2008 at 3:55 pm
seventyx7
Rick,
I was not ignoring your question, I answered MH questions with scripture and I will answer your question now. I in no way am a Mormon hater. I have two very good friends who are Mormon. and we openly talk about our faiths. Here is a scripture that applies to all people, no matter what creed:
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
Roman 3:10-18
WE are all sinners. Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, New-ager…..
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
romans 3:23
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February 21, 2008 at 1:44 am
ama49
Seventy,
You nailed it! It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that you can know something is true. Through the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truth of all things (Moroni 10: 4).
Now the question is how do you feel the spirit and recognize it is from God?
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February 21, 2008 at 1:46 am
ama49
Zeezrom,
Good to hear from you again my German friend!
What historic documents have you researched that lead you to this conclusion?
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February 21, 2008 at 5:19 am
Rick
Seventyx7, you selectively answer questions. Let me paste the questions you failed to answer, again.
From me:
(1) What do you have to say about Jihad? Is Jihad worse than mormonism, or better? (We’re impressed that you know your bible, but please, (2) enough of the scripture quoting–what do YOU think?)
From MH:
(3) Why don’t you go after Islam who kills people in the name of Allah, or the Catholic Church who did the same with the Crusades? That seems like a more reasonable stance to me. Both of them are much larger in population–(4) is the mormon church a much larger threat? (5) Are you scared it will outgrow them both?
Of course, this leads to the question, why do you have a site called Josephlied.com, and not one called Muhammedlied.com? This is the bigotry, that I am speaking. If you were “equal opportunity”, you should go after them too, but you’re only going after Mormons. I doubt Muslims will be attracted to your website, even if they have problems with Islam.
Technically they believe in Christ, but not enough to think the Bible is worth reading, so your scripture quoting is falling on deaf ears with them. (6) What is YOUR rational for setting up the website? (Hint–I don’t think there’s a scripture that says “God told Seventyx7 to set up a josephlied.com website. And thus it came to pass.” (Seventyx7 1:1-2), so your answer should come from non-Biblical sources.)
Ok, I numbered them 1-6 this time, so you don’t loose track of them.
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February 21, 2008 at 8:16 am
Rick
Let me clarify. I doubt Muslims will be attracted to your josephlied.com website, even if they have problems with Islam.
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February 21, 2008 at 4:34 pm
ZeeZrom
Aaron, I’ll try to locate some good sources, but for fun you may want to check out the film “Zeitgeist”. It offers a little taste of some of the arguments against Jesus. I think the website is simply zeitgeist.com
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February 21, 2008 at 4:37 pm
ZeeZrom
And if you like film references, there’s also “The God Who Wasn’t There”. That one you can’t watch online though, you’d have to buy it. Their website is http://www.thegodmovie.com
It has some similar info to the first 1/2 hour of “Zeitgeist”.
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February 24, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Rick
Seventyx7, are you still here?
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