Comments on: Do LDS Members Lack Faith if they Remove their Garments?

By: Soy Yo

Soy Yo — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:57:12 +0000

Ann, to be honest, I had a hard time following all of that. That is probably due to a lack of sleep but I am glad that you are happy now.

I do want to say one thing. You said, “Because free Agency remains Eternal. God himself right now can make a mistake if He wants to, and why doesnt He?”

It is statements, beliefs and theology like this that give non-LDS reason to claim that Mormons are certainly not Christians. The very nature of God is the polar opposite of Sin. He is Holy, Pure and is incapable of sin. Only in LDS theology is there even room to entertain such thought about God and it really diminishes who He is. Statements like that are considered total heresy in the Christian community. God does not and cannot make mistakes.

By: Ann

Ann — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:17:14 +0000

My comment is about “grasping the fact I am no longer bound by their rules and standards.” I know how this feels because I was at one time excommunicated. I am a convert – twice, I might say. I kept hope in not being completely worthless because I knew I lived many years without The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints previous to my first baptism. I also – I suppose – had a bottomline, foundational faith in Jesus Christ who lives and gives breath the world over. When I was excommunicated, I was relieved, Soy Yo reminds me. To me, tho, I knew I was simply living the degree of righteousness I could tolerate at the time, these degrees I know are true I’d learned in LDS doctrine. I had my run-ins with my husband at the time who demanded – in my earlier stages of apostasy (loosely worded, from an outward appearance) – my temple recommend be taken back by our branch president. Even he (the branch president) tried convincing my husband I was still in a “stage” where temple attendance would help me, but — I just got a current temple recommend back after some ten years. I see the small print on it: “When properly signed and endorsed, this certifies the person is in good standing and may enter the house of the Lord. This recommend… remains the property of the Church… and must be surrendered on demand.” After a while, I became inactive and didnt wear my temple garments anyway, years before I got to more formal disciplinary process. I since ponder in myself somewhat the “hedge” Satan asks if God has set around Job, and I felt somewhat this concept in my temple garments. I have yet to feel it since being restored to “the temple” as I put it, but I am not looking to express myself outside the bounds at this time, as I did before. And for what reason? I may ask, did I step outside the bounds at all? My testimony did not waver. I didnt look at an outward appearance, as my life was in too much crisis at the time, I had to live and breathe. I know I felt relieved, as Soy Yo says, in living a different degree. For all intents and purposes, I would say it was looked upon as the lowest degree of glory, the telestial (if not hell to please Satan), but I cannot say I discounted the Atonement. I actually can say I started living chastely for the first time since puberty, because “the lightbulb went off” and this is how I say I started over again tho crumbling all the props. My first time around (baptized) I was single but married my lover soon after (the man who became my husband – if thats not a brilliant comment, nothing is) and he was baptized, also, a few months before we were married. I equate this history, now, to “covering my sins with the priesthood” in other words, we were married civilly and eventually we were sealed in the temple together, but I -personally- felt a “higher” degree of personal hunger and thirst for righteousness.. I feel I simply went back to my original testimony of The Church when I became excommunicated. I started over, plain and simple. I questioned in myself the “seed of doubt” Yankee Saint brings up. Can doubt be essentially considered a seed? The risk involved is something Satan warned ME about, but –I guess I am comforted in the understanding I have of Heavenly Father’s flesh and bones which live Eternally! But anyway, intellectualizing aside- tho I admire the talents of expression and teaching I witness here in this blog- for me I almost get myself to wondering why I am or ever was blessed with a testimony! Married, I commit adultery and find my entire life is a lie and begin (*again) my original quest – which testimony I was blessed with at age 15 before there was any need for anyone to consider I had any problems of this sort! I hope some readers smarter than I am can figure this out, I’m still trying to relate and further understand! The original question of this blog topic: Do Latter-day Saints lack faith if they dont wear their authorized garments? OK, I *could have understood my life was a lie on the inside before I got to the extremes I did, and why didnt I? Why doesnt anyone? Why do we even need to be here? It also amazes me, even in the context of having “common ground” a perfect Being isnt even understood in anyway similarly to other groups, but I guess this is the degrees of glory I mercifully learned in teh LDS Church. Its excusable when we talk about human behavior, but I guess indeed it is up to Our Common Ground to witness. How Anonymously Common, yet I know there is such a Witness! I’m recently learning more about the difference between Faith and Hope. I dont have faith in some aspect I’ve never been exposed to, I think this is a good starter. For instance, I wasnt married to Christ, tho I say I operated within His bounds until the point of adultery and excommunication. All these are brought up by the Lord in speaking of His Church, but just on my human level, I think it can be seen I have enough figuring out just the outward appearances and all of Christ’s representatives etc! As for women not having the priesthood, and yet wearing temple garments, it is my belief priesthood is shared in a (more) fully-operative form in Exaltation. Men’s acts of God are probationary, here. They just get a different form of acting, or we can blame a woman for getting pregnant. Jesus’ mother already had that problem. My faith is operative in Priesthood, God’s true power, which God displays to me Himself. As a woman, it is one less thing I need to worry about from an outward point-of-view, but I believe in it as part of Exaltation, male-and-female. It may always be so, in the Eternities, as it is here now, but Faith is the question. Hope, I am learning, is more directed towards myself. I can have faith in as much of Jesus Christ, my Savior, as I am allowed to “know.” Do I think it has any meaning for me, personally? Then I have hope. This can be extended towards what Charity is, the acts of salvation Christ gives to even those without Hope or even Faith. Which is only important to the one who actually has Charity, after all! Garments. I admit, as the years droned on and I awaited restoration after rebaptism, I ordered new garments. I mentioned it to my branch president (yes, we are still a branch) in anticipation for The Day which did for all intents and purposes arrive. He didnt object. Distribution didnt object. There were some technical issues along the way, I was rebaptized before Salt Lake even knew I was excommunicated etc but along my process, I didnt worry about it – as Soy Yo reminds me – grasping the fact I am no longer bound … I also believe faith can change the past and the future, the order is perceived humanly, such as temple ordinances for the dead, now, being performed “in order.” I feel it is for the comfort and understanding of the imperfect minds, mine well-included. I wasnt unduly humiliated. I am divorced! My ex-husband didnt even know I was excommunicated, or rebaptized. Here is where I admit I got to a point where I received my temple garment packages and I did not wear them without Authorization. I got to the point where I de-marked some of them, and put them back on my skin. I admit I suddenly became self-conscious I was without garments – in an outward appearance. I havent publicly mentioned wearing de-marked garments before, I was never exposed to my underwear so intensely, to that point. Within months, I was restored, and was present during the restoration blessing wearing unmarked garments. I understood and understand temple garments without markings to be nothing but “filthy rags.” I changed in to “real” garments at earliest “convenience.” Having so mentioned, I wonder if this is something else controversial! Of course it is! This is underwear, and it is sacred! (By the way, the expense question of the Mormon underwear is answered in what I was told by LDS Distribution that the actual cost of each garment is ten times what it is sold for, so think of it that way. Its not as expensive as we think it is. If I want to special order anything, it will cost ten times what the standard production charges.) I THINK, having reflected over all this, that garments do not mean anything without faith. Do Latter-day Saints lack faith if the garment is removed? Do I lack faith if I’m asked to remove it as an object or as an ordinance? If I’m excommunicated, what does it mean? I can compare it to having the choice to receive a body or playing it safe and never risking making a mistake. No one has perfect faith at any time, in any way, in any means. Hows that for what does anything human and temporal mean? And what about after I am resurrected? and go thru the Millennium, and what is the purpose of Satan being loosed one more time before “the end,” after I am already resurrected and everyone else is, too, for that matter? Because free Agency remains Eternal. God himself right now can make a mistake if He wants to, and why doesnt He?

By: ama49

ama49 — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 02:08:09 +0000

Hi Erik,

Thanks for stopping by and leaving this very true and inspirational comment.

By: Erik Peter Hansen

Erik Peter Hansen — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:00:56 +0000

I try to remember, also, that God is a living, all powerful Creator and Savior and an actual relative of mine who wants to talk to me- all the time in little miracles and right urges. The scriptures we have are always going to be incomplete and God is ready to include us in more of his gifts and truths. I think that Mormons and protestants, Catholics, etc. all put a limit on truth, as if they have had enough, and can’t get any more. God is eternal as is truth and we are so small. It will take the rest of life to learn it all. Only God, not man can teach us. He does choose good men, though fallible ones, when they have been prepared. Be open to new ideas and love God with humility and meekness and you can’t go wrong.

By: Erik Peter Hansen

Erik Peter Hansen — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:49:45 +0000

I agree… The physical action of obeying a call to wear a protection as a promise and symbol, AND the faith in Christ’s atonement give a fullness of power and determination. Actually it is the other way around- faith in Christ and then do what you can to support that faith. Yes?

By: Erik Peter Hansen

Erik Peter Hansen — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:41:58 +0000

Raine, I think you have proven that you are learning truth through The Spirit of God. There are those within the church who don’t quite use the gifts they are given to discern how important God’s will is at every moment, and that He will tell you what to do concerning the law. You seem to have caught on to the truth that these prophets gave their will up and went to their deaths, because they were asked to by The Father. The Lord and The Father can remove our gifts and protection when He wills it and we are simply to follow Them- sometimes unhappily, at least temporarily. You are ready, or soon will be, for the vows and trials, the joy and rewards of the fullness of Christ’s power and gospel. Serve you creator and Father well…
Peace
EPH

By: ama49

ama49 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:58:20 +0000

Soy Yo,

If when you’re drinking and eating, etc. you’re doing it unto the Lord and if you feel good about it then you’re right, it is between you and the Lord.

Personally, I feel that if my body is a temple and if I’m drinking and eating, etc. unto the Lord, the Word of Wisdom is a great way to do that. But you’re right, it is between me and God. I have family members who aren’t Mormon who drink coffee, beer, and all of that. Do I judge them? No! There are too many other things in life to live for than condemning others for their eating habits.

No one ever has the right to judge and if they do they’re in the wrong. Remember not to judge them for judging you as well though and pray for patience! : )

By: Soy Yo

Soy Yo — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:43:51 +0000

Ama49

I mentioned Romans 14 because it supports both sides of the issue regarding what we should eat or drink.

Verse 2-3 says:
One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

13-14,17:
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean…For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Since I left the LDS church, I have been constantly judged because I now choose to drink coffee, tea, and beer on occasion. Somehow this makes me so bad and evil in the eyes of members I know and even my family. They have a hard time grasping the fact that I am no longer bound by their rules and standards. I try to also keep in mind the parts of the chapter that speak about causing others to stumble by why I choose to eat or drink but I think the underlining message of the chapter is in verse 22

22 – So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.

It is up to each of us to decide what is personally permissible and what is not. If we involve God in that process then no one can argue against the conclusion.

By: ama49

ama49 — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:12:18 +0000

Soy yo,

By the way, thanks for the reference to the Romans 14. This is off topic from the original post, but there are many great key points in this chapter.

1. Regard the day unto the Lord including what we eat.

This is something I may write about in a future post. Regarding the day unto the Lord to me means that everything we do, we should be doing unto God. As Paul says, what we eat and also what we do. I would add our conversations and thoughts (as Jesus taught). If we’re eating and drinking unto the Lord, make sure we’re eating and drinking what and how the Lord would have us do. Our thoughts should be positive as the Lord’s. Our conversations should be uplifting, etc.

2. Don’t judge others for what they eat and do

A very important reminder that it isn’t up to us to judge others regardless of their eating habits or their actions. Sometimes this can be very difficult, but it is what Jesus commanded and if we’re true Christians we’ll strive not to have bitter feelings towards those who offend us.

2. This chapter actually supports the Word of Wisdom almost word for word.

See verse 21:
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.”

By: ama49

ama49 — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:03:21 +0000

Yankee Saint,

Thanks for clarifying your background and your experience. You very well may be right about the Evangelicals and their intentions to tear down faith, and if that is their intent then it is all the more reason for us to pray for them and try to love as Jesus loved. Even if they are our enemies we are commanded to forgive and pray for them.

As for those Evangelicals who visit the site, perhaps you’re right about their intention. I can’t really judge their intentions, but what I can do is try to take the best from what they say and as long as it isn’t demeaning, I’m happy to do so.

For example, as we see on this post, the Evangelicals who commented shared that they don’t feel a need for garments. That is fine. Their views on that will be different than those of an LDS visitor. However, where is the common ground? It is in Jesus Christ. Those LDS visitors will then remember the words of the covenants and commitments we made in the temple to Jesus Christ and we’ll rejoice that we have that blessing. Even if we don’t practice our faith in exactly the same way, both the Evangelical and Mormon will come together in rejoicing in Jesus Christ and I’m sure that’s what He would want us to do.