Very good comments and I agree with you. If God is perfect and if faith is an attribute of perfection, then God must have faith.

An organized thing (a created thing) exists. Prior to being organized (created), the material that comprised that thing existed in an unorganized or disorganized state. That is pretty clear cut. But the word existence poses “problems” as it must be distinguished from organization (creation). The opposite of organization is disorganization. The opposite of existence is nonexistence. If something is, it exists. If something isn’t, it doesn’t exist. It is the word “existence,” then, that smacks of creatio ex nihilo, because Joseph states in plain words that without God’s faith there would be no existence, therefore it is God’s faith that causes both creation and existence. This means that there was a point of creation and also a point of existence. Prior to that point (the point at which God’s faith was exercised) nothing was created and nothing existed. Nothing. As in before all things that do exist existed, nothing existed. A big, fat nothing.

The reading of the text indicates both creatio ex materia (creation or organization from pre-existing matter) and creatio ex nihilo (existence from nonexistence), does it not to you? I never caught that before. If Joseph both believed and taught this doctrine, do you think he was wrong?

Also, ama42 #12 said, “I don’t know if this is what Joseph Smith meant when he said “God would cease to exist,” but if it is what he meant, then I would have to agree with him because if we do not have faith in God, He does cease to exist for us and we’re left to our own devises.”

The text indicates that Joseph was talking about God’s faith, not the faith of men. He says, “Take [faith] from Deity and he would cease to exist.” He doesn’t say, “Take faith from man and God would cease to exist.” The text is plain that Joseph was talking about God’s faith and what would happen if God no longer possessed faith.

You said

“If Joseph, then, is saying that there can be “no creation, nor existence” without (God’s) faith, don’t you think that statement would apply to the creation of our spirit bodies, too? So, logically, if you take the words at face value and rewind the clock backwards, prior to the creation of our spirit bodies, did we not then exist? (This would be creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing or creation from non-existence.)”

I think this depends on your interpretation of the word “create.” When I looked it up in Hebrew it wasn’t clear to me whether this means to “organize” or to “create from nothing.”

If it means to organize then creatio ex nihilo doesn’t hold ground. If it doesn’t mean this, then ex materia needs to be more closely examined.

Thanks for stopping by and I agree with you completely. God doesn’t cease to exist if there isn’t faith, but if we do not excersize faith in Him, he can do no miracle as seen numerous times throughout the scriptures and stated in Ether 12:12 in the Book of Mormon.

On the other hand, we see numerous times where people excersize faith even the size of a mustard seed and they see great miracles happen in their lives.

I don’t know if this is what Joseph Smith meant when he said “God would cease to exist,” but if it is what he meant, then I would have to agree with him because if we do not have faith in God, He does cease to exist for us and we’re left to our own devises.

Thanks for your thoughts!

ama49 said, “Regarding your question, I believe personally that we existed before coming here in some form or another. In the Bible it says God breaths the breath (in Hebrew this means Spirit) of life into man. I believe this to mean that God put our spirit into our bodies and that we exsited before coming to earth.”

I meant before the creation of our spirits. Before existing here as embodied spirits, we existed as unembodied spirits, created by God our Father. If Joseph, then, is saying that there can be “no creation, nor existence” without (God’s) faith, don’t you think that statement would apply to the creation of our spirit bodies, too? So, logically, if you take the words at face value and rewind the clock backwards, prior to the creation of our spirit bodies, did we not then exist? (This would be creatio ex nihilo, creation from nothing or creation from non-existence.)

Put another way, Joseph is saying in that statement that it takes faith (the faith of God, not of man) in order for there to be creation (of things) and it also takes faith (God’s faith) in order for there to be existence (of things). So, prior to our creation, we were in an uncreated state, which, through God’s faith, brought us into a created state. And prior to our existence, we were in a non-existent state, which, though God’s faith, brought us into an existing state, or state of existence. Take away God’s faith, and God ceases to be God. Take away God, and all created things revert back to their previous uncreated states and all existing things revert back to their previous non-existing states, or as Lehi puts it, “all things must have vanished away (2 Ne. 2: 13).”

This smacks of creatio ex nihilo. So, my question to you is do you believe that Joseph was wrong on this point, too, or do you think that his words only applied to the creation of the physical realm and not the spiritual realm, thus saving the typical LDS view of creatio ex materia (creation from pre-existing matter)?

Thanks for your thoughts and sharing some advice as to what helps you. I’ve found that through prayer and scripture study the Spirit will usually confirm truth to me and in most cases it is in line with General Authorities as well.

I’m not sure what role Rigdon played with the Lectures on Faith…