So, I have a hard time when people bring up this history v. faith v. facts v. spiritual experiences, etc. stuff. Mainly because I used to base my faith on feelings, until I came to the self-realization that feelings shouldn’t dictate truth (in the spiritual/religious sense).

I don’t mean that to come across negatively, by any means. I’m just saying that personally, for me, I need more proof than just a feeling. And also, personally, I think if there were a god (which I highly doubt) he/she ought to be powerful enough to prove his/her existence. All the “life is a test” answers handed out to me as a kid seem to be a huge cop-out. Anyway, I don’t want to go off on that tangent.

I read something today on the theme of history, regarding mormon history, that is. It is a letter written by a woman to her sister, take from it what you will. I don’t agree with everything she writes (mostly how the Bible is a “history”, since I think the Bible is purely made up, but again, that’s just me) Much love. Peace.
-Z

“Dear #####

Yes, history is history, but the church is based and exists because of its history. Without the grove, the prayer, we have nothing. No history, no church. As Pres. Hinckley said, either the first vision happened or it didn’t, you can look up the rest of that quote if you would like but it is history so maybe it doesn’t matter any more. The church is based on its history. A testimony is based on truth. If the history has been tampered with, and the church exists because of the history, then what do we base the testimony on? The history is our salvation. Every revelation is based on its history, when it came, how it came, who was told, what was said, that’s its history, no history means it never happened. How many times have we been told if we don’t know the history of our country we are bound to repeat the same mistakes from the past? History is critical to keep us from repeating the same mistakes. If history doesn’t matter then a good portion of the BoM was unnecessary, it is a history of the Lamanites, only the doctrine should have been passed on if the history wasn’t important to our salvation. The Bible, a history book, is it unimportant to our salvation too?

I don’t expect perfection or a pretty past but I do expect honesty. The history isn’t the biggest problem, it’s that I have never been told the true history, just the white washed version. If history doesn’t matter why change it to make it more palatable? Leave it as it was originally recorded. Changing it changes everything. The lesson manuals are full of history, their version, not the facts. If history doesn’t matter why bring it up at all, anywhere? If history doesn’t matter why re-enact the pioneer trek? If history doesn’t matter why did the church build a museum to contain its history or a new library? If history doesn’t matter why repent? It’s history and history doesn’t matter. If history doesn’t matter why are we told to keep a journal? It is a history and of no value and there is nothing to be learned from it. If history doesn’t matter why are we continually told to follow those who have gone before us and learn from their history? Or are we to handpick only the best stories and let the rest go as unimportant? Or should we change the history to better reflect what we prefer to believe?

Satan is the father of all lies; we have been told lies; I did not create the lies; I only discovered them; but I am paying a high price for not accepting the lies, being honest with myself and with my family. I couldn’t quote all the scripture about the importance of being honest and the importance of honesty to our salvation. Do those scriptures exclude the leaders? Is the beginning of the 13th article of faith still in effect? Are the ordinary members the only ones expected to be honest with our fellow men?

I have only been offended by the lack of honesty in presenting our history. It is shameful we exist because of our history and then deny its importance when it becomes a problem. This has nothing to do with the trust and love I have for my husband. This has nothing to do with the trust I have in the Lord. This has nothing to do with expecting perfection, I do not expect perfection. I do expect honesty, I don’t think that is too much to ask from men of God.

“The more I try to DO what God would have me DO, the happier I am.”

“..I’m SERVING in the LDS church, READING the scriptures, TESTIFYING of the Lord, SERVING in the temple, LOVING others, and THANKING God for being alive.”

My happiness is as simple as BELIEVING God sent His son to die for my sins. Knowing that there is nothing I can do to repay that gift.

My eyes were covered in deceit when I was a mormon. Although I was just like you and your family. Believing with everything in me that it was true. I have been humbled to know that God used my experience in the mormon church to glorify Him. Now the generational line of deceit has been broken and we are free from a legalistic regimen.

I think faith and our walk with God is like any relationship. It is what we make of it. The more I try to do what God would have me do, the happier I am. I am happy and content with being a Mormon, thanks for asking. I’ve never experienced the Holy Spirit in such abundance as when I’m serving in the LDS church, reading the scriptures, testifying of the Lord, serving in the temple, loving others, and thanking God for being alive. There’s no doubt you can experience most of these things in any other religion.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. What makes you happy?

That video from living hope ministries is what got me the heck out of dodge. Things were said in that message that no one ever shared with me before I joined the mormon religion. I will be completely honest and say that the next two quotes I list are the real reasons I left.

“Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. “Loyalty,” April Conference, 2003.

Orson Pratt: (on the Book of Mormon) this book must be either true or false, if
false it is one of the most cunning wicked bold deep-laied impositions ever pawned
upon the world. Calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will really receive it
as the word of God… If after a rigid examination it be found an imposition it should
be extensively published to the world as such the evidences and arguments upon
which the impostor was detected should be clearly and logically stated. ..
(the Divine authority of the book of Mormon)”

Joseph Fielding Smith: Mormonism, as it is called, must stand
or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of
God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he
was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no
middle ground. “If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully
attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his
claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false,…”
(Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, pp. 188-189)

God is good. I will be forever grateful to my next door neighbor for saving that video in her inbox for over 2 yrs and only when she knew it was the right time to share it did she send it. I was at the right place in my life to receive that gift. Since leaving the mormon church my mormon friends have asked if I am happy. I should ask the same to them!

This is one of the beauties of the Book of Mormon – it gives us additional “life histories” of people’s experiences with God and Jesus Christ. It supports the Bible in every way as another scriptural witness that God speaks through prophets, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and that no matter where you live or what your life experiences are, history repeats itself, and we can learn from it.

There is no way for my blind friend Amy to know what a flower looks like – she can feel it, and listen to other’s descriptions (which often include words like “color” that also cannot be comprehended). There is no way my deaf friend Bryce can know what music sounds like, he can only watch others participate in making it and enjoying it, and sometimes he can feel the vibrations, which makes his musical experience unique from mine. Both Amy and Bryce have what we would consider physical limitations, however they are both amazing and valuable human beings, and I love them dearly not only in spite of their differences, but because of their differences! Both of them feel sorrow, love, joy, grief, pain. Both of them bleed if they get a cut, or laugh if they hear a funny joke. And both of them feel the spirit of God in their lives. Their interpretation of the world is based upon what they know and experience right now. Someday Amy will see a flower, and a sunset and a mountain. And someday Bryce will hear the music, and the songbirds and the rushing waterfall. I think this is how it is for each of us. We each must accept that we have spiritual and intellectual limitations based on our life experiences and our innate abilities to comprehend. This does not make us any less important, nor does it devalue any of the spirituality that we have already gained. It also should not mean that we allow ourselves to be limited. We each have the ability and promise that we can find more answers and further understanding either in this life or the next.

As for the anger and bitterness and mean-spirited-ness that continually creeps into non-LDS and LDS alike who try desperately to “prove” their beliefs one way or the other – using complex communication and based upon scientific facts? It brings to mind my favorite quote by Elder Robert Wood of the Seventy:

“The first casualties of human wrath are truth and understanding.” (James 1: 19-20)

I personally think that the problems and derision that arise in religious dialogue stems from
#1. A “loss in translation” issue, where words and terms are used that neither side understand.
#2. Fear. There is real terror that comes from the following thought process: “if you believe something different than I do, and you insist that it is true, then it sounds like you are trying to take away from me what I hold closest to my heart. I cannot let you do that! These are my gifts from God! I will fight you to the death if I have to, in order to protect what I hold dearest to me!”

This is the very lie that Satan loves to feed to all of our weak minds. He delights making us experience irrational panic attacks which then leads to irrational words and behavior. He feeds these lies over and over to breed hatred and discontent and fear, which in turn breeds hatred and discontent and fear….. because it works! Human beings have bought the lie from the beginning of time. The real truth he doesn’t want us to ever figure out is that we could all actually be helping each other get closer to God, and build each other’s faith if we trusted ourselves enough to put aside our fear, and humble ourselves enough to see each other as we truly are – the way God sees us:

Each a valued child with amazing gifts, knowledge and abilities, who are each a “work in progress”.

#8 CS

As I read your comments I was reminded of a scripture in the Book of Mormon right before the Savior appears to the people after His resurrection. It’s found in 3 Nephi 11. Here’s the scripture:

1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude agathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land bBountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the cgreat and marvelous change which had taken place.
2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the asign had been given concerning his death.
3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a avoice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a bsmall voice it did cpierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.
4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they aunderstood it not.
5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did aopen their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.
6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 Behold my aBeloved Son, bin whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they asaw a Man bdescending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

If you notice, it took awhile for the people to become sensitive to the Spirit of the Lord, but when they did, they understood and not only believed, but saw Jesus.

We can all have similar experiences if we open our eyes to see and our hearts and ears to hear and feel the still small voice of the Holy Spirit in our lives testify of truth.

On the other hand, Satan, to accomplish his goal, would want nothing to be proven so as to shake everyone’s belief.

These two objectives make it apparent to me that there will never be much concrete evidence found that will support either book, until God wills it.

The Spirit has born witness to me of both books and I believe in each more strongly because of the other. I believe in Christ more strongly because of them both.

I really appreciate how you emphasized how important it is to stand by truth and Christ.

If I were to ask you how you knew what truth about Christ was, I’m sure you would say you know as a witness through God’s Holy Spirit because that is really the only answer.

You are absolutely right in what you say about casting doubt on scripture and no one should find satisfaction with doing that. You need to realize though that those of us who believe the Book of Mormon also believe the Bible and have felt the Holy Spirit testify to us of the truths found in both books. When someone “attacks” an LDS person for things they see in the Book of Mormon due to historical issues, etc. I think the natural man wants to “prove” scriptures are historical and if they can’t then they fall back on showing inconsistancies in both books. Their purpose (I hope) isn’t to discredit the Bible. Rather, to show that regardless of inconsistancies due to historical issues there is truth (as you said) in the words that testify of Christ.

You are right to mention that the Bible hasn’t had all historical evidence “proven” but throughout the years more historical evidence has come forth. The same thing has happened with the Book of Mormon. However, until one opens their ears to hear and their eyes to see the truths found in either books, the Lord will not witness the truth to them through the Spirit.

I think this is what Dan in comment #6 is trying to say as well is that it is the Holy Spirit’s witness of truth that is most essential, not historical evidence.

However, I love to ask questions, and still have many that are unanswered.

I put those aside for the time being. Typically, I will get them answered over time, but some might have to wait until the next life to get a full understanding.

Whereas we shouldn’t be afraid to ask questions, especially difficult ones regarding the Book of Mormon, Bible, etc. A person’s foundation needs to be built on a spiritual witness.

Building your spiritual house on only DNA evidence or other empirical evidence would be to build your foundationon in sand, and not on the rock of our Redeemer.